How many deaths will it take to change plumbing codes? (PAH)

Dave Yates (PAH)

I hesitated on including the link because the "news" report is full of innacurate statements regarding LD.

With proper plumbing codes and enforcement, none of these folks would be currently dead.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1128635426293&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

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Gordy

Funny

" Not" When I heard this on the news first go around, LD was first on my list, until they said they ruled it out. Guess they took a closer look Dave.

Chuck Shaw_4

Dave,

It will only take one, but that one must be politically connected.

Chuck

Tony Conner

We've...

... got codes and rules and regulations out the wazoo here, for everything you can imagine. Enforcement? Not so much.

You can bet that there will be new rules brought in "to prevent situations like this from ever happening again". I strongly suspect that if they'd just enforce the ones already on the books ... oh, wait that would make the powers-that-be look like they weren't doing their jobs. We certainly can't have that perception floating around.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Codes, regs & enforcement - oh my!

Same here Tony. The local codes dept wanted to charge me $277.00 for a mechanical permit to install a mini-split Mitsubishi Inverter heat pump (works just like a modulating boiler). They have no one who can inspect the work because the third-party inspection agency doesn't have anyone working for them who would even know what they were looking at, much less, if an Inverter heat pump was installed correctly. I refused to pay the fee unless they provided an inspector who understood the equipment and its proper installation. The fee was cut in half and there won't be any inspection. We've put up with incompetent plumbing inspectors for decades, but I won't tolerate the same as they now are moving over into heating & A/C for permits/inspections, while raising inspection/permit fees by more than 500%! As before, the inspectors are simply grandfathered or appointed without any training for their expanded duties. It's a deplorable situation that looks like fraud to me, given the fact that the homeowners paying these wildly increased fees aren't getting what they're paying for - not by any stretch of imagination. It's not about protecting the consumer's health anymore - it's become a thinly disguised method of raising revenues to offset poorly managed budgets. Double taxation! The city of York thought firing their $33,000.00-a-year in-house inspector, raising the fees so dramatically, and using a third-party inspection agency would fatten their coffers. Instead, they lost $84,000.00 in money the third party agency took out of the new fees - in the first quarter of this fiscal year - and the newly enacted exorbitant fees had exactly the affect we told them they would - in spite of the huge fee increases, permits obtained fell off - a cliff! Plumbing permit fees alone fell by more than $35,000.00 year to date. They never had mechanical permits before, so no bench mark exists, but they admitted building permit fees fell even more dramatically. It's a silent Boston Tea Party revolution in progress & our city is teetering on the verge of bankruptcy - literally.

As for nursing homes & LD? Here in the States, the codes call for a max of 110 F water delivery temps. Concerns regarding scalding, yet they do not dictate which ASSE 1016 valve must be utilized in the bathing area. As a result, most end up with pressure-balancing-only because they're cheaper, and they're blind to altering temps in the delivery system. That's a 45 F seasonal change in our area, which means the pre-set delivery temp changes too. The manufacturers instructions call for manually adjusting the limit-stop as seasons change - yeah right, like the maintenance men will ever have the time or the owner(s) will be willing to pay a pro to perform the service - not.

They also don't dictate where that reduction is to take place and, as a result, it is typically done in the mechanical room. As bad as the scenario is for breeding Legionella bacteria at 120 F, lowering it to 110 or 105 (as is the case locally for several nursing homes) sets up a perfect breeding zone in the hundreds, if not thousands, of feet of piping in the distribution network. An elderly gent was killed by LD because the nurse filled his nebulizer's humidifier with tap-water. Tap-water laden with Legionella bacteria that was coursing through the nursing home's (cold-water mind you) distribution network of plumbing. (Did you notice that the news article said they're trying to determine how the bacteria arrived? Try the water service line!) He died a horrible death. Nursing homes routinely test positive for the presence of Legionella Sero Group 1 - the most deadly of the bacteria's strains.

Typical treatment is a high-temperature flush, which only offers a temporary reduction in bacteria colonies and masks the real issue.

There are several solutions available:

* Copper/silver ionization equipment, which offers a 100% eradication of Legionella bacteria and a residual kill-rate that keeps dead-legs or longer-term unused portions bacteria free for extended periods.

* Chlorine dioxide equipment, which also offers a 100% kill rate.

* Add UV steralization following ultrasonic bombardment (to break open cysts and exoskeleton shells of single-celled animals used as nurseries by legionella) on the water-service line and you'll prevent re-colonizing the system.

* Elevate the storage temps (CIPH has already passed this first-step, but ignored the distribution network, which is a site where legionella thrive and breed), add a thermostatic ASSE 1017 certified valve at the outlet of the storage tank, provide a minimum circ of 133 F at the beginning and a min of 122 F at the return to the storage tank with constant circulation throughout the potable hot-water distribution network and install ASSE 1016 certified temperature AND pressure balancing faucets in bathing areas with ASSE certified 1016 valves pressure and/or temp balancing at all other points of use for these elderly folks who often can't "sense" the actual temperature of water or else their reaction time is too slow to avoid scalding, which BTW, can still occur at 110 F & their burn times are vastly lower than ours due to thinner skin. The only ones more susceptible to burns from scalding are infants. This also happens to be the least expensive and most readily available treatment!

And the sad truth is that every code body (in this country anyway) knows about this and the scalding issues and yet, nothing is done to prevent the more than 100,000 scalding cases or the estimated 10,000 deaths from legionella-derived CAP. Raise the fees and ignore the issues! And, just for the fun of it - let inspectors be appointed so Uncle Louies nephew who couldn't keep a job will have something to do! Fortunately for the whole process, many of the appointed inspectors strive to learn and do a good job. However, they should be trained and pass a real test before being turned loose. Our third-party inspector bragged to me that he only had to study the plumbing section for 30-minutes before taking his PI portion of the exam. If true, that stinks.

The lone question posed on the proposal form for changing plumbing codes I received? "Will the proposed change cause an increase or decrease in construction costs?" Not a single question about how it will affect health.


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[Deleted User]

Sounds like York

is in lock step w/ D. C. Only D. C. is doing you folks one better. Their inspectors are looking for Trades Vehicles outside homes & other buildings. They then knock on the door(s) & ask to see the permit. No permit - $500.00 & stop work.

This is their answer to higher permit fees, late (or no show) inspectors, phone numbers that change faster than plumbers eat lunch, appointment voice mail boxes that are seldom emptied, and an almost automatic Red Sticker if you complain about any of it.

They finally are allowing a 3rd party inspection outfit to help. The fee is $300.00 a pop. But, if you need the rough in inspection before you can button up, it's worth it. Then maybe some time, or other, the city will do the final. They don't really care - as long as they get the permit fees.

Just like the red light & speed cameras, it's not about safety, it's about the MONEY.

Dave Yates (PAH)

It's a sham

Same thing here regarding selective enforcement - read: discrimination for one segment of society only.

Not one instance exists as a public record of any of our local administrative bodies having prosecuted an unlicensed hack for working without a permit - not one & I've asked for evidence to the contrary - not to be found. If this ever plays out in a court of law, I suspect they'd lose their case.

The public isn't stupid. Their reaction to York's 500% increase in permit fees? Hire unlicensed hacks. We've lost a number of jobs due to the new fees and so have the other licensed plumbing contractors (heating, A/C, electrical, and building still remain unlicensed). Customers aren't reluctant to tell us we either can do the work without a permit, or they'll use someone else. Many have told me they'd rather use a pro because they know the quality of work is better, but they're not willing to shell out that much money for services they know are substandard and with the realization that the permitting process might also trigger a reassesment of their property.

The codes officials tell me it's too expensive to prosecute the unlicensed hacks and that the Magistrates won't cooperate when they seek larger fines. Codes enforcement officers have ignored violations - even when the unlicensed hacks have been turned in by name, date and location.

The real joke with PA's new code is that a homeowner can do anything they want without permits or inspections, but we pros must follow the rules to the letter. Nice message to send. Never mind people move every seven years on average, which means the new owners just inherited the problems. While some homeowners can turn out beautiful work that's code compliant, I've seen some awfully weird things too. Same goes for contractors - both licensed and unlicensed. Precisely why we should be seeing inspectors who posses an inherant knowledge of the fundamentals with the ability to know what it is they're looking at - like a manual-J calculation and how to perform a heat loss/gain calculation or how to interpret or do a combustion analysis (which isn't even required anyway).

The sad truth is, the system's broken and it doesn't look like there's any way to repair it or restore the true intent for protecting the health of the nation.

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