geo thermal in ma.

Constantin

Yes, Goethermal is very, every efficient. It has some great advantages, such as an all-indoor heating and cooling plant (makes the neighbors and perhaps the owners happy), cools and heats, very efficient, etc.

Yet, I also cannot see the economic payoff in this region. The electricity rates are rising simply too quickly that it makes sense to <em>me</em>. While electric heat customers may get a discount down to 14 cents a kWh, or whatever it is here right now, the next hike is 27%, IIRC.

Plus, you have to support two utility infrastructures, one of getting the fuel up here, another to turn it into electricity. Sooner or later, it makes more sense to burn gas at 98% efficiency or oil at 89% efficiency and to invest the difference in insulating the home. The up-front cost of going geothermal in this neck of the woods simply kills any positive NPV, ROI, or whatever economic measure you want to use.

Back in the midwest or in regions with hydro-power, geothermal can make a lot of sense. Those generators benefit from a low-cost fuel... making it possible to heat and cool a place for next to nothing with a geothermal system.

wilbot_4

geo thermal

Is any one doing geothermal or getting requests for this type of install in ithe lovely state of ma.

joel_19

Geo

we've gotten requests and have worked on lots of air heat pumps for years . Personally it doesn't make any sense to me > No matter how you slice it electric heat is electric heat . 14c a kilowatt do the math .

Craig Bergman

How can it not...

make sense. With unit COP running about 4.6 and EER of 28.
For every dollar you put into the unit you get back 3.6 dollars of heat because of the groung loop. there is nothing else I know of that is 360% efficient. On the A/C side, an EER of 28 is a whole lot more efficient than any 16 SEER unit.

Just my 2 cents

Bergy

Bob Morrison_3

Mostly it's too expensive in a heating dominated climate...

Bergy,

Does the ground-source heat pump (GSHP) operating savings repay the additional first cost of the system as compared to gas heating/air cooled cooling? Generally, in MA., it does not.
Yes, the COP in heating mode is 3.5 to 4.0, however, electric is 2.0 to 2.5 times more expensive fuel (BTU basis), including the effect of an 80% gas efficiency. So, the COP benefit is undermined by the higher cost of electricity (although the two fuels are coming closer).
Again, on cooling side, the GSHP system is 2.0 to 2.5 less operating cost, due to lower condensing temperature. But, in MA there's only a couple of cooling months a year. The cooling benefit is small compared to the additional first costs of design, outside piping and the well-drilling.
Is it worth the exercise of comparing real costs for the systems? I typically estimate $10 per foot for wells; anyone have some actual numbers?

Bob Morrison

Dirk Wright

16,000$

That's the estimate a friend received for that geothermal system that uses copper tubing directly in the ground in deep 2" wells....

Constantin

That's cheap!

One Geothermal guy told me not to bother him unless I was willing to spend at least $35k just for the holes and the BOP. That, for a 60kBTU/hr system.

I can buy a very nice external air-to-air system for a fraction and use it for the few weeks a year that we actually need it. Plus, air-to-air systems are not nearly as exotic as the GSHP systems can be. Remember the advice we give about installing heating systems with which the local maintenance staff are familiar with and for which parts are plentiful?

Yes, my neighbor doesn't like the look of the two condensers in the yard between us, but I'd leave GSHPs to those that need a lot of cooling in areas where electrical power is comparatively cheap.

thp_8

I smile everytime

I get my electric bill. You have to really get down and do the math. Then you will see why geo is the real deal. Dollar for dollar, it only makes cents. The other thing to look at is that heat pumps don't have to supply 100% capacity. For the average job you need 100% capacity only a few percent of the year. Think about it. P.S. Forgive me Dan. Don't tell anybody what I do for my day job.

Craig Bergman

Typically

in central Iowa electricity costs are in the 11 cents/KWH.
If you are a customer of R.E.C. you have dual meters and pay 3.5 cents/KWH October thru March to run the Geo unit.

Costs of the loops are about $1-1.2K/ton for horizontal,
$1.3-1.5K/ton for vertical and $800/ton for a pond loop.
Rebates in our area, for a 5 ton unit, range from $1.2K
with R.E.C. to $4K with the regular utilities.

On average, our customers invest about $10-12K (before rebates) more than a high efficiency gas furnace and 14 SEER condenser. On average, our customers save about $1.3K every year to heat, cool and make hot water. That's a pay back of 8 to 10 years at TODAYS gas price.

Bergy

ed wallace

geo thermal in ma.

you should get in touch with the trinity church in copley square in boston they did geothermal about 8 yrs ago ask them about thier heating bills

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

joel_19

Craig

What makes sense in one area doesn't make sense in another .Yes I know how efficent they are , so what . Your costs for an installed system are extreemly low compared to here and your electric rates are also extreemly low . That price you quoted per ton was that for the well ? or the system itself with the duct work?. Either way it's a fraction of here . I was quoted 10k minimum just for the well for a 2 ton . A pond loop ? Ha try going to a local Gestapo board out here and ask them for permission to put a loop of tubing in a lake . It will probably take you a year and a half and cost 30k just for your enviromental impact study . Keep in mind that the homeowner has had to jump through hoops and probably eaten up a year of their life and tens of thousands of dollars just to get permission to build any where near a body or water in The Peoples Republic.

There is No break here on the cost of electricity for an all electric house or dual meters or anything. I believe we pay more than 3.5c a kilowatt just in delivery charges alone . Again 300% eff means didly when the fuel costs 500% more . I can heat my 1900sqft oil radiant house with about 500 gallons of fuel . This year that will run maybe 1200$ most years it's been 600-700 bucks .Even if my bill went to 0 that would take 10 years plus just to pay for the well . Of course it wouldn't go to 0 it would actually go UP! .My summertime AC bill is about 150-200$ total. Yup 28 Seer would cut that to ohh what 75-100$ ?

I don't have my calculator handy but oil has 140kbtu per gallon convert that to kilowatts XS 14c per kilo comes out to something like the equivelant of 6.25$ - 6.50 a gallon oil!. Ok 300% eff that gets you back to the cost of oil , but then how do you offset the upfront cost of wells or digging in a ground loop ? Ground loops can be very pricy here too . You see you don't dig a hole you BLAST a hole . We've worked on a street where every house had a blasted out foundation hole = big money . Who wants to spend another 10 - 20k to blast more holes in rocks to put in the heat ? Just because it's efficent doesn't make it cheap to run .

joel_19

THP

Please enligten us . Is there a Geo heat pump company using a true variable inverter driven compressor such as those from Mitsubishi ? I wasn't aware any American compressor company had that technology ? if they do have that than yes that would be a considerable improvement . The only one I know of that runs with partial output is Copelands bypass scroll and that is only two stage 67% first stage . Are you saying that a geo is infinite like an ECM meaning a 3ton unit can throttle back to say half a ton ? We all understand the benifits of partial load operation i just didn't think there where heatpumps that can do this .