Reinspection?

Robert O'Connor_12

The Uniform Construction Code (N.J.A.C. 5:23) states that in N.J.A.C. 5:23-2.18(c) Notice for inspection: 1. The owner or other responsible person in charge of work shall notify the enforcing agency when the work is ready for any required inspection specified herein or required by the construction official or appropriate sub-code official. This notice shall be given at least 24 hours prior to the time the inspection is desired. Inspections shall be performed within three business days of the time for which it was requested. The work shall not proceed in a manner which will preclude the inspection until it has been made.

Is this in a multi-family ? As for the gauge issue, the DCA (Department of Community Affairs) has issued a FTO (Formal Technical Opinion) on this very subject but I belive it has been pulled. It did say you can use a 30# gauge (max).
I hope this info is helpful. On a separate note (if your in the great state of New Jersey) our host Dan has an agreement with NJPIA (New Jersey Plumbing Inspectors Association) and has added "Heatinghelp.com" as one of the associations links on their website so the inspectors ARE listening.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Paul Mitchell_2

Reinspection..Robert O'Connor....Anyone

Hello all
Long time since I have posted but been pretty busy. We work in Monmouth & Ocean County NJ. One town I failed a pressure test on a gas line for a home...it was the gauge...thats what they all say...The town told me another 10 days for a reinspection. Is there a code that governs this or can they take their time? Weather is not bad yet but sure am happy it isnt winter yet???!!
Thanks
Paul

jackchips_2

This doesn't help

you Paul but here in MA the inspectors get 48 hours.

I attended a code update seminar for inspectors yesterday and the Executive Director actually gave a warning to those in attendance (listening Pah?) that they are in the position to serve the public not the other way around and if they can not do the job in an appropriate time and with the correct attitude they should be doing something else.

It was refreshing to hear and should be followed by all inspectors.

Jack

Dave Yates (PAH)

public upswelling

The general public opinion of what they receive for the inflated inspection fees we're seeing has sunk to an all-time low. I've never seen so many citizens be so adamant about having their work performed without permits or else they'll take their business elsewhere. We've lost several jobs as a result. The code officials won't prosecute the unliscensed contractors who choose to ignore the rules, which leaves those of us who are licensed hanging in the wind.

The public is not stupid. It has long been understood that the permitting process was a trigger for property re-assesments. They are rapidly becoming aware that this new batch of inspectors know a great deal less than they should and that this process has become centered on generating revenue, rather than protecting their health.

Add a 500% increase in fees to the above mentioned delay & you can easily understand why our local citizens are willing to circumvent the rules. York City is bleeding financially and lost more than $100,000.00 in permit fees this year to date. We tried to forewarn them that picking the public's pocket via grossly inflated permit fees would see this happen, but they wouldn't give us the time of day. Now that they're seeing such a huge financial loss, they're our new best friend!

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Paul Mitchell_2

Thank You

@$ would get busted?? I know maybe I failed the inspection but what if it was cold out and I could not turn the heat on.?
Paul

Robert O'Connor_12

Paul

If you write a simple letter (1 paragraph at the most) requesting an inspection and either hand deliver it or send it certified mail citing the sub chapter and you encounter friction, I'll be the first person to assist you in your plight. We are under the Uniform Construction Code here in Jersey and there is absolutly no reason why they can't abide by there own regulations. I too have had an enforcing agency tell me to wait and I called the Construction Official on it and got my inspection the same day and have consistantly done work in that town (as a matter of fact I'm going to that town friday to work). The problem(s) as I see it is that most of the officials are part time without benefits and the towns try to keep the work part time, what happens next is the P/T inspector says to his boss that their only gonna do so many a day thus reschedualing for another day hoping the next weeks load will be less and the cycle continues. Another problem as I see it is the enforcing agencies budget. Most municipalities have dedicated budgets therefore they rob the construction code department of 30% of the revenue they generate thus keeping the saleries down and the work load high just to the point where the don't have to pay benefits. If the towns weren't so greedy they could pay a professional salery, keep permit fees down and improve public service (isn't this what its all about?). When I worked as a construction official for a period I attempted to replace the dedicated budget with a dedicated budget with a rider (This went over like a fart in church) a dedication by rider means ALL the money stays in the construction code department and we just pay rent to the municipality for the utilities. The down side of the rider is if you establish saleries and projected revenues and fall short then the municipality must raise the money through taxation (I've yet to see this happen by the way). The construction code department contrary to what many people belive is NOT allowed to make money. The budget is established to after all expences have been paid (saleries, lights, heat, paper, ect..) there suppose to end up with a zero balance. Unfortunatly for the masses the construction code department is a monopoly, however finding myself always on the defense about it I can only say that you would want me to of inspected a home YOU potentially would buy. Whats good enough for you may not be good enough to the person that buys that house, that being said thats why there is a book of MINIMUM STANDARDS. To address what Dave mentioned above about assessments is only partly true, true that if you renovate your kitchen and secure permits the tax man a commeth, yes. THe tax man is gonna come anyway and just because you didn't secure permits doesn't mean your not gonna be re-assesed. Most assessors could care less if you got permits or not OR if your finished with the work. You do not have to have a certifcate of completion to be re-assessed but only to have a significant portion done. Where most people get jammed up is when they go to sell the property and when the zoning compliance inspector takes a peek a notices the new bath, kitchen, boiler, AC ect..he alerts the construction official where as in many municipalities has the ability to hold up the closing until all work can be verified as being safe, unfortunatly this gets expensive. Violation notices with fines, destructive inspections (compelling walls to be opened), having to hire an attorney, architect, engineer and in the end the assessor still assesses you retroactivly. Sorry this post ran long but the enforcing agency is necessary and can only help to raise the bar of quality and awareness.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Plumdog_2

You are so correct

One builder I talked to today says a permit for a residential project will cost him 33,000 dollars. That is ludicrous. A homeowner I know could not get a building permit unless he cut down 80% of the trees on his property; then they socked him with a View Tax. Meanwhile the Handyman crowd does whatever they want without any regard to code or licensing.
I searched the web for liability insurance qoutes using a fictitious business name "Handyman Explosions" and got better results than with a real name. Screw it.

Anthony Menafro

Inspections

The problem with some towns is that they only have part time inspectors. This poses a problem with the three business days as per the Blue Book (listed above). These inspections are to be done between the hours of 9am and 5pm. Some inspectors will work with you after hours when necessary. I would inspect it if I needed to approve a job to allow someone to run their boiler in the winter. I am a licensed plumbing inspector and wish to serve my population and their best interest.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Robert

I wish what you've said were accurate for my area, but it is not. The inspectors do not inspect home transfers, so that new work mostly goes unnoticed. On sites where building code officials must issue occupancy permits, illegally installed work is seldom caught. However, even when it is, as was the case on a job-site where we'd been called in by the new owner to perform some repairs, nothing is done! In that case, the building inspector called the codes enforcement officer and told him we were on site and it looked like we'd installed a new bath & kitchen. The PI called my office and exclaimed "you're busted", obviously enjoying what he thought would be a great moment in time. When we pointed out that we had not done the work, he was plainly disappointed. I saw him a few weeks later and asked him what happened. The previous owner had contracted with an unlicensed contractor for the renovations. I asked what was being done? "Nothing, it's too difficult to prosecute unlicensed contractors."

Same town, diff day. We lose work due to the permit fees - as stated by the contractor and HO. PI stops by to discuss an unrelated issue and the odor of PVC glue was blatantly evident (we were three doors away - row homes). I asked him if he was going to check it out. "Nope, not interested."

Another Township where I sit on the plumbing board (there's a mental image!) that has never formally met. In fact, I was appointed without my knowledge and had been on the board for most of a year before someone let it slip. Imagine my surprise! At any rate, I get a call from the PI because a licensed plumber from another town (and the GC too) had done a commercial project without any permits or inspections. The electrical inspector had called this in to the twp. So, here's a licensed plumbing contractor caught red-handed who pronounces he's not only not picking up a permit, but that he's never going to pick up another permit and he'll work where he damn well pleases! Anything done? Yeah, they yanked his license. No fines, no prosecution, no nothing - in spite of my voting for full prosecution top whatever extent the laws would dictate. Now, the guy already stated he wasn't going to let getting permits and inspections get in the way of working in that twp, so yanking his license was a joke (although absolutely necessary). How in the world can they ever expect to enforce the rules now? They've set a precedent that leaves a loophole wide enough for an army of lawyers to drive their hummers through - side by side.

Things might be working where you are, but the system is broken here. Instead of fixing anything, they simply jacked up our license fees and permit fees by an average of 500%. Couple that with a permit that can only be picked up by the Master Plumber, which means I've got to leave my office where I'm doing something that's actually productive, find an open parking meter, plug it with a buck-fifty for the (often) 90-minute ordeal of obtainiong the permit and shell out several hundred dollars for what? No one is going to even arrive to inspect much of what we do because, as they've said "we're too busy to inspect smaller jobs.", so now the cust has paid for a "service" they aren't getting. Or, given the nature of our work - the inspector will be totally clueless regarding the Inverter heat pumps, radiany heating or high-eff condensing boilers we install. If my customers are to be expected to shell out hundreds of dollars in permit/inspection fees, then the inspectors should be delivering professional services - monopoly or not. It is not my job to train inspectors, yet that is exactly what we've had to do - repeatedly - for the 3+ decades I've been involved. As you noted, the inspectors job doesn't pay well, so we've been repeating the education process over & over & over & I'm weary of the process.


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Paul Rohrs_4

Insurance?

And the insurance companies are going to cover this work? I hope not!

Scenario:
A fly by night electrician wires up a job, next day, electrical fire burns the remodel, addition, or whatever... certainly the insurance company will not cover this and these fly-by-nighters are destined for prosecution.

Dave, is this accurate?, semi-accurate?, tell me. Low-bid, but not insured has to mean something to your consumers. (?)


Regards,

PR

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Dave Yates (PAH)

interesting question

But we've found that the HO either are unaware the subs are not insured (where a GC manages the work) or they simply don't ask or want to know or they're willing to take the chance.

Do insurers care enough to follow up on claims to see who might have done the work? Don't know, but I've never yet seen them follow up on damage claims where I've seen sub-standard work as being the root cause. They don't have field inspectors that know the difference - near as I can tell from past dealings with them.

Case in point regarding the low bid. GC decides pumbing contractors are too expensive & feels like there's nothing to what it is we do anyway. So, he decides one of his carpenters will now be his "plumber". I wrote about the resulting work for CM, which is the lazy T article on the web site. www.contractormag.com The twp inspector knows who did the work & without a permit or inspection. Anything being done? Nope.

Damned if I can figure out why I should be abiding by the rules when everyone else who ignores the rules is getting a free pass. All it's doing, is making me less competitive in the marketplace and has those of us who strive to play by the rules $500.00 behind the starting line with more delays that cost us money as we attempt to schedule inspections where the productive time lost and open-ended inspection fees suck profits from the net on each job.

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Paul Rohrs_4

A thought

We should then consider opening up a separate LLC or sole-proprietor company to market to this mentality.

Biggerstaff Radiant Solutions will only provide TOP-SHELF installs, permits, and code approved installations, but my other "Wholly-owned" subsidiary company "Butchers-R-Us" would be glad to put together a proposal (not a bid) on unliscensed, un-insurable, non-warrantied work, not subject to code approval or health violations. (Think "open-systems") I wonder which they will choose.

Of course, I will not do this, and I know you have worked to hard to NOT take these backwards steps. But it would be good marketing wouldn't it?

Regards,

PR

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Dave Yates (PAH)

We've already suggested

to our local codes officials, that the next move on our part might be removing the lettering from our moving targets, dropping our licenses and operating like the clowns they are currently ignoring!

Perfect example of why: They want us to pick up a $75.00 permit for installing a water heater + a $10.00 fee for "breeching a chimney". Meanwhile, the big box DIY centers have no such rules to live by. I flat out refused to participate until they prosecute an unlicensed installation. And, BTW, this is one of the things the inspector said he's too busy to be bothered inspecting.

Here's another gem: We're licensed by the NEWWA and York Water Co to inspect BFP's. YWC is privately owned. The city decided this is yet another lost opp for cash, so they passed a rule that BFP's must be inspected four times per year & that each one will now require a permit/inspection by their code official. There's a case where the permit/inspection fee will likely be greater than the charge from my firm! And, just for an added measure of revenue generation, they passed another choice piece of law that says any device requiring more than three inspections per year will have a doubled fee plus - "the device must be broken down to its smallest components in front of the inspector". Say what?!? Yeah, I'll be picking up one of those permits the same day Hell freezes over. YWC & NEWWA have both told the city they have no intention of cooperating either.

BTW, the "R" needs to be reversed(G)!



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Dave Yates (PAH)

Actual insurance claim - from today

Funny how things pop up at opportune moments. As regards insurance claims and unlicensed work installs causing damage.....

I visited a site today for a GSHP estimate. Upon arrival, the flooring contractors were just leaving following replacement of about 1,200 sq ft of hardwood flooring. Seems there'd been a flood from a water line at the kit sink.

After a pleasant conversation about GSHP technology, the flooring guys left & the HO was telling me about the water damage. Seems the new KS faucet installation caused the problem. The ins co wanted to know who the contractor was so they could sue them for recovery of damage. Want to venture a guess regarding who caused the problem? Given this thread, it was a perfect job to visit. The HO did the installation & caused the problem. They've been living in a hotel for several weeks while the old floors were removed, the home dried out and the new floors installed. Think the ins co so much as batted an eye? Think again. They are picking up the tab for everything - including the hotel! 17K damage for the flooring alone. Go figure.

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Paul Rohrs_4

Salt on the wound

would be that WE are paying for it as the Insurance co raises it's rates. Better days Dave.

Regards,

PR

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Jeff Lawrence_24

Dave

You may enjoy this.

I received a call from a customer that found my name on Burnham's website. He asked me to quote replacing his boiler and a couple of other assorted minor things. It took a few days and finally I called him back with prices.

The condensing boiler was "way too much" and when I gave him the quote on the Burnham boiler, he asked what the extra money was going to. He clarified that with "I found that boiler on the web for about XX% of what you quoted." I explained what the extra money was for , including a permit, insurance, etc. He empathically said no way.

Funny thing, in this state, all boilers need to state inspected by our labor department. I called the inspector for that area and imformed him. He told me he'd take care of it. I think I heard a smile in his voice when he said that. An evil, I'm gonna get on that kinda smile.

Jeff

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Dave Yates (PAH)

A radiant customer

I met with today indicated he'd gotten his bogus info from a certain infamous internet co in a northern state-of-confusion & I set him straight tonight. Debunking radiant myths along the way(G). We'll now be doing the work correctly with proper materials and code-compliant methods, but without inspections.

Same circumvention of inspections as the internet co can get away with - knowingly. Fighting fire with fire at the local level.

They're illegally recycling gray water too.

The silent revolution against unreasonable fees/regulations is well under way here locally & I'm just about ready to jump on that bandwagon myself.

Solar will be the next major bone of contention!

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