Question--Non-Heat but So Much Knowledge at The Wall

Steamhead (in transit)

www.1000bulbs.com

www.bulbs.com

Both sell ballasts and other goodies as well as bulbs.

Dimmable fluorescents have been around for years but the cost and extra wiring involved limited their use. Somewhere I have an old Hubbell catalog that showed an incredibly large and complicated control system for these units. But now we can even get dimmable compact fluorescents- even in reflector style that work real good in recessed fixtures.

Let us know how you make out.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

100% indirect, dimmable fluorescent installed in an architectural cove for general illumination in a kitchen.

Square cove area. 4 x 8' fixtures. Can have 6" - 8" free space at all corners, e.g. about 9' finished square.

Cove width is versatile.

Distance of light source to ceiling 10". More is possible but NOT desired. Ceiling height approximately 9' 10".

Standard T-8 tubes a MUST.

LiteControl seems a good choice.

Questions:

1) Other sources? Open to nearly anything as cost is not the first consideration. Cove width is versatile and can accommodate remote ballasts.

2) Single-tube fixtures from the above source should give 50 footcandles at the floor at maximum. Proper task lighting throughout: undercabinet fluorescents for counter tops; direct chandelier for island roughly centered in this space; simple recessed light for main sink. Abundant natural light during the day. Is this (50 footcandles at maximum) sufficient? Dual bulb fixtures would give about 80 footcandles at miximum output but not as evenly...

3) What dimmable ballast? Want high quality but do not need an extreme dimming range--particularly if the single-tube is used.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Steamhead. Most interested in the physical fixtures designed for indirect cove mounting.

Dimmable ballasts have plummeted in price since I first designed the space for this lighting. Literally less than half the price of 18 months ago. The dimmable ballasts still require a special controller, but some use only two wires. Still not sure if multi-point control is available without a proprietary control system.

Steamhead (in transit)

If the cove is deep enough

could you use ordinary strip fixtures?

gasfolk

Are T5 linear fluorescents too expensive?

I'm just a homeowner, but you might consider T5 dimmable fluorescents. Electrix.com has a model, EX, which is specifically designed for use in the range you describe.

We have used their dimmable AX model in coves 9" from the ceiling (but we knew ahead of time that we would have a bright spot and some limitation of throw), and we also have dimmable EX in a ceiling pocket about 7" from a wall, which is now well lit. We have been very satisfied.

Electrix uses Lutron ballasts, and we understand a two-wire option is available. The fixed ballasts run about 25$ per foot, and the dimmables were pricey and the wife thought I was crazy, but now she loves them and uses them constantly.

gf

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks so much! Do like the Electrix fixtures. Nice adjustable reflector!

Reason for the T8 is output. 8 of the T5 high output bulbs amount to 432 watts of fluorescent lighting and it looks like I'd have around 100 footcandles at the floor at max output. With task lighting available 100 footcandles seems extreme overkill and would tend to get really uneven on the ceiling--particularly in corners.

Given the 10" bulb-to-ceiling height the area of highest illumination from all four sides will be nearly focused on the center island--virtually irregardless of the angle of the fixture or the reflector. The high-output bulbs would, I suspect, make the island look like an operating table... Realize I could dim them down, but believe I'd only be adding unnecessary expense to an already costly system.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Steamhead:

My scale drawing shows I can make the top of the center island the focal point of all four side if I keep the maximum output angle between about 15° and 30°. Plain strip lights don't have the necessary reflector to do this and I'd have to use trial-and-error to fabricate my own.

Kal Row

look into the new power compacts...

used by salt water reef tank people... not cheap to buy, but loads of lumens per watt - and you can choose the exact color you want

also if your cove is deep enough and the channels reflective enough - you might consider metal halide with electronic ballasts - for serious lumens

but if you are on a budget and you can live with the yellow color - use standard base bulb sockets - and sprinkle it with those 13w(=60w) spirals that you can buy in 8packs now for 1.75 each - and put in task lighting under the cabinets for the counters, and a few florescent spots of the eating area

nice thing about cove lighting is that you can do moldings to death – with all those fancy plastic molding designs and ceiling appliqués avail to day you can really fancy it up inexpensively – many of the wedding halls in my area are old warehouses “molding’d” and “appliqué’d” to death

gasfolk

Hope these are useful...

A lighting designer told us the T5 lamp is the essential feature in quality, architectural, cove fixtures.

"While the standard T5 and T5 HO are the same diameter and length, the 4-ft T5 is rated at 2,900 lumens, similar to the lumen per watt output of a T8 lamp. "

"A variety of new fixture designs take advantage of the T5 lamp's dimensions and other characteristics; thus, these fixtures distribute the lumen output uniformly and achieve a good brightness ratio across the ceiling. With conventional T8 or T12 indirect fixtures, good uniformity can only be achieved by suspending luminaires 24 in. or more from the ceiling (Photo on page 30). In a typical office with a low ceiling, the bottoms of the fixture would hang below 7 ft, which isn't allowed by building codes. But the T5 lamp allows the fixture to be smaller, the optics of the reflector to be more precise, and the suspension to be as little as 15 in."

The quotations are from the following article
http://www.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_fluorescent_lamp_coming/

Also, you might find this paper interesting reading for ideas:
http://www.sunindustriesinc.com/articles\article9.docfor Consider searching it for "ratio of scotopic to photopic spectral output" and "retrofit at the Intel Corporation Engineering Facility"

When we were researching our kitchen lighting, we found suggestions to determine lumens at countertop level and to limit them, especially if we had task lighting. One unscrupulous vendor recommended 10 T5 HO 54 lamps (and 10 ballasts!) in circumferential kitchen coves, but after much reading and calculating, we used 2 T5 HO 54 and 2 T5 HO 39w lamps and two ballasts (each powering two lamps, which may be separated by up to several feet) in coves on opposite walls only, and the room is plenty bright. We also have 7 recessed cans for ambient, 2 75w halogen spots (over sink and main counter), and under-cabinet fluorescents.

Finally, for interesting links:
http://www.elflist.com/links.html

gf

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yes, VERY helpful. THANKS!

Will investigate the normal output T-5s further.

My design really requires light from all four sides. Had to do something to disguise the steel beam that separates the kitchen from the eating area and the steel reinforcement for the rear stairwell opening. 10' ceiling, but the window trim ends at about 8½'.

One soffit (inside wall) has to be low to encase the trunk line for the high pressure A/C system. A much shallower soffit then goes around the kitchen proper making the cove for the light. "U" shape with peninsula and center island. Trafficway at the open end of the "U" with refrigeration, ovens, broom closet and glassware/book storage below the low soffit. Has taken me years to design this kitchen and the ceiling with associated soffits was by far the most difficult part.

Should have all the soffits done today and will post some shots. The high-pressure air ductwork is pretty cool...

Brian (Tankless)

Kal, you are so right

about using mini-spiral flourescent's.

I am an energy-conservation freak from hell, and a marine maintenance electrician by trade.

I had/have an environmental lawyer client/freind (now) who's home is 6,600 sq-ft on three floors. A former owner/engineer designed and built the home, and really thought he did a good job, Hmmmmmmm.

I was originally called to work on a sink disposal (reset switch) change some very high light bulbs, to do some basic repairs, and give advice. I found that with none of the A.C. units running (four 4ton & one 3ton), water heaters off (three) and the clothes dryer off, both phases at his 400amp panel were still showing between 70-100 amps???

I counted almost five hundred, yes, 500x75watt recessed-can floodlights, and around 130x50watt recessed mini-floods.

Can you imagine his electricity bills, and the HEAT they were generating?

To date, I have changed over 300 of the 75watt bulbs and all of the 50's

His 12'x 12' kitchen is at least 15* cooler, it felt like being in a chicken broiler.

Oh yes, his bills dropped considerably, and comfort went way up.

This is another product that I have installed many of, and believe in, totally.

www.energysmart.com

I have zero incandescent bulbs in my home. (Electric bill for July, $76.00)

Brian Tankless in Swampland.

gasfolk

We agree...

When we moved in, the recessed cans all had high-wattage incandescent lamps, giving off a lot of heat that was an extra load on the A/C and slowly baking the wiring. We switched to compact fluorescents, which take a few minutes to warm up to maximum light output but provide the same ambient light. The wife still prefers the diffuse light from the coves, and (correct me if we have misunderstood) when dimmed, they draw less than their rated wattage.

Most designers we read recommended using halogen parabolics for the task lighting as the best source of concentrated light. Are you aware of a satisfactory CFL alternative with the same spot-lighting capacity?

gf

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Here are some compact fluorescent reflector floods.

Available in most common sizes with decent selection of outputs and color ranges. Like all fluorescents, color rendering can still be a problem. Hard to beat halogen in that regard.

Also, they appear only available in flood. Am guessing that spots are unavailable as it's kind of hard to focus an area of glowing gas

Did see some dimmable compact fluorescents in R-30 (I believe). VERY new on the market and not much (if any)selection of size/output/color.

gasfolk

Thanks

What's really cool is...

We could remove our 75w halogen lamps entirely. The light from the coves is so uniformly good, even I can read a magazine anywhere in the kitchen. Though she often adds the five (not seven) recessed cans for effect (total CFL wattage ~75w), the wife hasn't turned the spot/task lights on *at all* in two years. Cool.

gf

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks again gasfolk! Am still researching the T-5 vs T-8. Litecontrol (supplier I first mentioned) did tell me that single-bulb T-8s do work quite well with a limited (10") bulb-to-ceiling distance. 32' of the high-output T-5s will be WAY too much--both light and cost for the ballasts.

gasfolk

Programmed-Start Ballasts...

Mike,

We thought of a couple of final comments:

1) Consider "programmed-start" ballasts. They send current to the heaters then starters in a specific, timed sequence that (we understand) greatly lengthens lamp life in residential installations where the lamps may be turned on and off frequently. In fact, we understand that programmed start is so effective, you won't have to do mental arithmetic every time you reach for your light switch.

2) We have bitten our tongues to not tell you a specific goal for light intensity at the countertops. The recommendations we read were all over the scale, but only the process of reading and reading brought us to a point of comfort with a particular level, which has worked well for us--not too bright at full intensity. We can see how someone else might have different preferences.

3) Some Lutron ballasts require Lutron dimmer switches and switch covers, which are another expense to ponder.

4) You are probably already doing this, so please forgive us: you might back up anyone's fixture recommendations by comparing the graphs and tables of light output at various angles for each fixture.

5) Finally, we are glad to have the downspots, because if we ever finish this renovation, we might have a party and actually use them for mood lighting.

We think that's all we have to offer. Best of luck!

gf

jim lockard

100 foot candles

Mike-your going to want 100 foot candles at the counter top. Having done the electrical in alot of kitchens the biggest mistake I see is underlighting the space.You are much better to overlight and dim back. Best Wishes J.Lockard