very bad serving of oil equipment

Biged

I'am getting very worried about the state of service for oil burners. Now, I'm not in any way near perfect when it comes to servicing oil burners I don't even consider myself an expert so I need to attend seminars on a regular basis. But what I'am seeing out there is a crying shame, and we on this side of the service industry must be very concerned about the state of affairs when it comes to servicing oil burners.I'am doing some tune up for a local non profit agency. Tune ups are done by the respective oil company that supplies oil to their clients I get whats left from year to year so I'm going to get what somebody did the year before. I went on a tune up today that was done by the big P.... you now the blue trucks. the tag said the tune was done 10/04 it states "brush boiler, garber filter,.85 80A, CO " Tech#??? and the test results
This boiler is 8 years old and looks like it was never touch since it was installed. (I will post pictures as soon as I figure out how to) the chimney base was partially blocked(I'v been seeing this for a while now but even more so this year especially from the big oil companies). so I spoke to the HO about the condition of the boiler and what needs to be done. Do you know what her question was for me. the worse question an oil tech could ever hear. How difficult would it be to convert to gas? because she said "I think I have been ripped off for years" what does an oil customer get for a service contract? I'm trully disgusted about what is going on even though I may be wasting my time, I guess all I can do is to do my best and leave the rest alone.

clammy

hard times

Biged iworked for a small oil co and it seemed evry call i went on had to be cleaned,blocked chimmey bases, smoke pipe falling apart held together by furnace cement and silver tape ,combustion chambers so full it would go off on the safety from flamer inpingement when it cycled off .I still do some oil for a few custemers who get a service contract with there oil co but feel much better after i get done cleaning there boiler and going over there system.Just always have to keep in mind it's slow in the summer and cleaning creates alot of money in the slow season.Plus if you really clean them and set up the burners right they will burn less oil ,oil companies don't profit from the eff burning of fuel .Plus the second bonus is if you really do the job right you won't be back in the middle of a cold winter nite but then again there's a bill there and that's money as long as the business owner ain't the one doing the calls . on one other note not all oil co are the same some do do it right and have guys working for them that do clean them and set them up right but i believe there more guys out there tossing a soot stick in and changing filter noz and strainer and coping a eff tag but with oil co offering that type of service will pay the piper sooner or later only to blame themselves for bussiness loses .Good luck and just remenber you are doing those people a solid alot more then what alot of oil co do.peace clammy

tommyoil

All I can say is

Keep doing what ever it is that you do. Its obvious that you have a conscience. I see the same thing as you DAY IN and DAY OUT. Theres 30 techs where I am and I get tired of covering their asses every day. Theres a few I'd allow in my house but for the most part the work is horrendous. I do what I can to keep the customers on board as its job security. I cant account for what others do. I can only account for my work. Spread the word one customer at a time. Its not the oil. ITS THE SERVICE! Do your part and put ice on the industries black eye. Sooner or later, you'll have a following and peace of mind. Account for yourself and take care of the customer. Give them what they are paying for(finally). You'll get a good night sleep. I wish you well.

John@Reliable_10

And what about the .......................

gas systems outthere, you know the ones that don't need service because they're gas fired hehehe

Guy_6

oil

The industry has unfortunately created its own woes: Techs will get paid fairly well for the day work, but being on call nights and weekends-well it's eventually not worth it. That's one of the reasons that I got out. I loved the job, and enjoyed the work most of the time, but explaining to my family why I had to leave a kids party or holiday got old. Then there is that 2AM pager.... There are a few big companies out there that can support a night crew, but unfortunately not enough. The large companies also have a "service anonominity (sp?) whereby tech A may never have to face the customer whose system they mishandled due to the number and turnover of techs within the company. It's almost an accountability issue. Then throw in training; time =money, and a tech tied up all day in training is not profitable. The value of training is seldom seen as an investment. Conversely, manufacturers push training because it eliminates some of our daily headaches and therefore is a great investment.

Then again, some folks you just can't train-right Chuck?

GW

Ken D.

Oil

I worked for companies big and small. Most were chronically short handed. With the bigs they are more interested in quantity, not quality. The have a huge amount of schedule to get out and not enough people. The amount of work load does not leave much time for TLC. After an hour on the job, they are calling you to get out and on your way to the next call. Pay is not that much of an issue with the big boys,as they do pay well, but you can get so frazzled with the long hours and listening to superiors that are usually a thousand miles away and don't have a clue about your industry and even less about your market. Sometimes it doesn't seem worth it. That is one reason for the high turnover in employees. The little guys don't have a lot of disposible income, so training, proper tools and wages are a casualty. In my opinion, the best companies are the mid-sized as they are big enough to pay decent wages, but are small enough to care. Not too many of them left. Anyone in management listening?

Firedragon_4

Yeah, they'll see

this, maybe??? But they won't like you saying it, been there, done that!

For the record, since I see the worse in my legal work it is at ALL levels, all fuels, FACT! SORRY, there is no purfecshun out there!

Steamhead (in transit)

Ed, with all the substandard work

I've seen from oil companies, it's a wonder some of them are still in business.

We all know that a modern oil burner, even a low-static one like a Beckett AF if it's not in a boiler with tight passages, will burn without making any smoke or soot for a long time if set up properly. Those of us who have read Firedragon's "Combustion and Oil-Burning Equipment" know that his own burner can go four years without needing a tune-up. So how hard can it be to get one of these burners to run perfectly clean for one year?

There are still reputable oil companies around. I know of one very good one in the Baltimore area and recommend them every chance I get.

FD, I'm curious- what burner do you use that performed so well?

Gene_3

Quality

Unfortunately what you see is not uncommon. We bought another house in 2000 with a 1972HB SmithPac w carlin150. Soot all over, the local co's tag said, Oct 1999, serviced, Roy. That was it, not what he changed or did or eff test results, nada, needless to say the first thing I did was upgrade the entire system, leaving only the boiler block.

I tell my students, if they study and participate for this year they are in school, when they leave they will better than most techs currently in the field, this is true but, it is a very sad statement on our industry.

Dan said "Opportunity Knocks", keep doing quality work, don't waiver, and they will beat a path to your door.

p.s. Roy #$%^&

Firedragon_4

I think any of the burners

today will do the job that mine is doing, FACT!

IMO, it's not the burner make or model, it's the guy setting it up. Instruments, instruments, instruments! How many times do you have to say it????

I setup first using an ohmmeter and the Lanthier Scale and then go to my combustion tester. True Zero Smoke, nothing else is acceptable, FACT!

I've just finished with my work on Carlin U's Residential and Gas programs. I hope I go back next year to finish their Commercial program, we'll see.

Guess what they stress in all of their programs??? Guess what they now provide instead of shirts, hats and same-old, same-old? Three guesses?

I've just started training for NTI, formerly NY Thermal to teach both their oil and gas lines. Guess what they say is ESSENTIAL for the proper setup of the most efficient appliance currently on the market (Trinity)? Again, three guesses.

If you're wondering what answers the 'three guess' question, the three answers are up above.

To answer your question Steamhead and to get me in the soup one more time the burner is a Riello Mectron 5M/2 that is NOT available for sale here except in the F10 model from Thermo-Pride.

That's a two-stage res. burner, but that's not really true either. It was just rehabbed using most of the parts from an F5, so it's now a home-brew F5/2 from Firedragon Combustion Products(LOL).

Although it's been an amazing and fun product to play with, it's only two-stages. After now playing with a burner with a 16:1 turndown I'm very impressed and wondering just where is oilheat going to be down-the-road????

Ya gotta wonder when you keep reading posts like this?????

Constantin

Very good points...

... I think that both gas and oil combustion appliances are going in the direction of better internal combustion regulation using active servos and the like. It is my understanding that the Vitodens and some other condensing gas boilers already do this by varying the fan speeds, etc.

IMHO, it's just a matter of time before oil burners will do the same thing. Closed-loop control is only hampered by the fact that oil is less forgiving in terms of soot production and hence more likely to foul the sensors. Low-sulfur fuel will likely be just as much of a requirement in self-adjusting systems as it is for ultra-low emission vehicles. Etc.

On the other hand, like you, I believe that the oil industry will have to respond to the challenges posed by gas in terms of efficiency or face slow extinction.

Firedragon_4

As usual Constantin,

you hit the nail on the head.

Low sulfer should have come years ago, but when you look at the other BNL recommendations that were made to the oil industry 30 years ago and have gone nowhere it's more than a shame, it's criminally stupid, FACT!

I figure oil this winter will go to $2.50-$3.00/gallon, or at least that's what I'm figuring to pay. Next spring, watch out!

Most experts are telling me that last year (2004) there were over 200,000 conversions to propane and natural from oil on the East Coast.

Many of them were because of what has been posted here, some is due to just an apathetic attitude from the industry, some is due to perception (see Oilheating Consumer Survey) and some is just due to stupidity.

NORA should be renewed this week, another reprieve for a dying man? Let's hope so and it's time to get it right!

No more 'we always did it that way', no more 'dad did it that way', time to get out as well as think outside the traditional box.

It's survival time boys and girls, FACT!

Steamhead (in transit)

The Message!

"It's not the burner make or model, it's the guy setting it up. Instruments, instruments, instruments! How many times do you have to say it????"

From what I've seen there are plenty of people who haven't "gotten the message" yet, whether it's Firedragon speaking or someone else.

If I (a comparative rookie in the combustion arena) can get clean, efficient combustion from a 1983-vintage ABC/Sunray Bantam, why can't some people get a far more common burner like the Beckett AF or AFG to burn clean? This is not rocket science!

Firedragon_4

Regretfully,

the problem is they think they know it all. It's more fun to learn heating systems, controls, piping, wiring etc.

Everyone thinks they know 'combustion' cold, that's why their customers are, FACT!

Beckett, Carlin, Riello and everyone else runs factory schools and the classes are empty. Customers are living with poorly running equipment and going to gas.

Why? Because it appears to be cleaner, but it's not and we don't know what we think we do and should.

I've been ranting about this since MA was 90% oil heated, now it's about 35% oil. I've made a lot of headway, haven't I???

Instead I've been maligned, slandered, libeled, 'called every name in the Bible' and for what? It now appears I'll get out alive, I feel bad for the young people. Good news is the gas company is in the same boat.

Thank gawd we have a shortage of techs, we won't need them much longer anyway, FACT!

Bob Harper

sad state of the art

I hate to agree with Ed but its all too true. I think much of the problem in the short run is from service managers pushing unexperienced techs to do way too many calls. How long should it take to do a proper annual oil service? 1-3 hrs? Most take about 15 minutes. Change a filter, fire it, take a quick reading (incorrectly) and collect a check. I find 95% of the test holes in the elbow right off the appliance collar. I've watched oil techs take out their analyzer and zero it in the room inches from the boiler then take a reading after the burner has been firing about 2 minutes. They never check the chimney breech, never replace rusted out pipe, never clean the inside of the boiler and rarely use a DMM. The nozzles get changed only when they have a problem and that is the std. repair even without doing any diagnostics. I've seen so many units that have had multiple service calls where they replaced everything in sight only I find the chimney rotten, collapsed or grossly oversized.

Why is this going on? MONEY! Until the right people get their pants sued off, this crap will continue. When the insurance industry starts looking into what actually caused the puff-back and who could have prevented it, things will begin to change. When someone doesn't wake up because a tech cut corners on a service, things will slowly change.

The sad part is, this is not limited to the oil industry. Aside from allied HVAC fields, think about other service and repair industries. Does your mechanic always do a 20 something point check up regardless of why your car is on his rack? Does he road test it around the building to see if the brakes fade or steering pulls? Does the appliance tech check the defrost timer on your freezer and take some meter readings? Does he flush the drain line? Does your boiler tech operate the TPR valve on your DHW heater and flush the tank for a few minutes? Does he replace the anode rod every few yrs? Use combustion analyzer not only in the flue gases but around the base? How many HVAC techs measure CAZ rooms for make up air requirements or perform a Worst Case Depressurization test? Inspect vent terminations for blockage and clearances?

We all collectively need to raise awareness and we all need to raise the bar to set an example. By providing excellence, you will bring market pressure on the competition. Even if they don't pick up their game, at least your customers will have benefitted from your conscientiousness and ethics. The guys who are doing the right things are the ones claiming they don't know it all and continue their education through guys like George. If you ain't learning, you're backstepping. There just isn't any place for that kind of work ethic anymore. More frank discussion like this is what we need in all the service industries and not just oil.

Keep up the good fight and keep setting the good examples for the rest of us!

Firedragon_4

Harper, we have a problem!

I don't know it all either.

Was at a seminar last night as a student, have one in the am and one next week. I've never met the person who knew it all, yet I've met many who claimed they did.

BTW, my mechanic does do the FULL test on my truck and more importantly my wife's car. One of the benefits of making friends while in 'the voc'.

Funny thing is, none of us ended up as social derelicts like so many claim all the vocs are for now, shame!

See ya

Maine Ken

FD, I try to attend as many training opps as I can fit in. I was quite pleased to recieve my Beckett "CommercialEducational Program" flyer today. I started to fill it out when I noticed that the training dates are "July 20, 2005 July 21, 2005 and July 27, 2005".

It is not the first time I get notifications well after the training has happened.

Maine Ken

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Firedragon_4

I got mine yesterday,

don't know what's up with that. Too bad, a lot of money that was wasted.

Shoot the mailroom kid!!!!! LOL!

B. Tice

Bob on target

Bob is right- not alot of thorough mechanical people out there.In all trades. What will happen in the future??

Firedragon_4

\"And we

all go down together" to quote a famous Long Islander (Billy Joel).

Biged

The only good

thing about this it seems is that these jobs can not be out sourced, so we will have to change our metallity toward service.

Gene_3

True however,

in regards to outsourcing, I worked at a company in the 90's when there was a severe tech shortage and they did toss around importing techs from Russia and South America so don't be too sure about that not happening.

Talk to some factory rep's. They'll tell you that most problems are not their products, it's the tech's not READING THE INSTALLATION, MAINTENANCE AND SERVICE MANUALS!!
C'mon guys they print this stuff for a reason.

I try to set my students in the right direction, I tell them that "this year of training is just the 1st year of your training, you will have to keep learning for as long you're in this industry or you will fall behind, this is just the beginning".

Look at some of the new equipment coming out, who is going to be able to accurately set them up and diagnose them?? Only those willing to learn and accept that they do not know it all.

Ragu

Thanks Guys

Sometimes I get lonely doing cleanings our way, but I really think that a whole lot of subsequent potential "No Heat" calls can be avoided by doing a really good scheduled cleaning, tune-up or whatever you call it.

An older guy taught me to look at a cleaning as an opportunity to test EVERYTHING that you can, to see if a component is getting weak. It has really worked for me.

I've always thought that this industry has not picked up the slack regarding:
1) Preventative Maintenance
2) Predictive Maintenance
Both of these procedures are standard practice in other trades, because they are a cost-effective and pro-active method of dealing with mechanical systems failures.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who says they can set-up, troubleshoot and maintain a system without test gear is a fool and a hack, and I don't want to be associated with them.

Biged

Oil Seminars

Mr. Dragdon there are a few seminars you have that I am interested in but for some reason I can't post on Dragon talk even though I am registered. Please send me an e-mail on the dates. anajayees@yahoo.com

Firedragon_4

You don't

need a password or username, enjoy!

Firedragon_4

If you can't outsource,

what do you call plumbers and HVAC people doing oilburners? What do you call oilmen doing gas and I don't mean propane?

There will be outsourcing to immigrants, bet on it! One of the brightest students I ever had came from Ireland.
Not only was he eager to learn, keep his job so he could stay here and live, but he had one of the best attitudes I have ever seen, FACT!

BTW, I also had a young Hispanic gentlemen in class a few years ago, he now has his own business in the barrio ;-) and is doing very, very well. Ya gotta speak the language, get-it!?!?!

Ken D.

Outsourcing

It's here. They'll work for nothing no matter how many hours. A lot of illegals too. Nothing new, The same happend in the mid to late 1800's and early 1900's. So, you guys who don't return phone calls or keep appointments and use questionable service and sales tactics, You can be replaced.