WM Ultra piping with Indirect

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there are acually knockouts in the bottom. But they don't! Knock out, that is. I end up holesawing. I have also put a hole in the sides near the bottom to ell into the bottom taps.

I go both ways on indirect piping.

On this one I used a Caleffi Hydrolink and treated the indirect as a secondary. Others I parallel to take advantage to ther priority and high temperature fire rate.

I've done two with the indirect in series as the primary loop. I oversized the indirect tank and let it run with 140 supply for an above the floor radiant.

I also move the terminal strips to the front.

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Chris E

WM Ultra piping with Indirect

I was questioning my WM Ultra's piping the other day. I re-checked the manual and it is piped in accordance with the WM specs. So I figured that I would pose this question.
Should there be some kind of check valve on the return side to the boiler right where the boiler pump is, but just before the return from the indirect tank. I'm thinking that I would probably get some ghost flow into the system when the indirect tank is calling for heat. I have noticed that the boiler piping up to the main loop is warm when the indirect pump is running.

Any Ideas would greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

Ron Schroeder

Hi Chris,

Personally, I think there should be TWO checks on the indirect. One on the supply to the tank and another one on the return. I mount them close to the tank and insulate the piping. It really cuts down on standby loss in the Summer. My current favorite is a B&G Hydrotrol since they have the lowest restriction for their size and can be mounted in any orientation.

Ron

Chris E

Hi Ron,

Thanks, for the response. I do have 2 checks on the indirect. The pump has a check in it going into the indirect and there is a taco flow check on the out. My question is more on the return from the main loop the the boiler right by the boiler pump. WM does not have a check in there diag. and I was thinking that there should be a check to stop the return water from the indirect ghosting up the return from the main loop. The boiler pump does not run when there is a call for the indirect.

hr

I like to use

all four taps on the Ultra. I use the bottom two for the indirect with the B&G iso check flanges, on the pump discharge side.

Then the top connections for the heating side, also with B&G iso check flanges on the pump discharge.

This allows full flow through the indirect using the DHW priority built into the Ultra module.

It does cost you a second high head pump, but really recovers the indirect quickly, and without any ghost flow issues on either heat or DHW side.

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Tony_23

Good idea, but

> all four taps on the Ultra. I use the bottom two

> for the indirect with the B&G iso check flanges,

> on the pump discharge side.

>

> Then the top

> connections for the heating side, also with B&G

> iso check flanges on the pump discharge.

>

> This

> allows full flow through the indirect using the

> DHW priority built into the Ultra module.

>

> It

> does cost you a second high head pump, but really

> recovers the indirect quickly, and without any

> ghost flow issues on either heat or DHW side.

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



> all four taps on the Ultra. I use the bottom two

> for the indirect with the B&G iso check flanges,

> on the pump discharge side.

>

> Then the top

> connections for the heating side, also with B&G

> iso check flanges on the pump discharge.

>

> This

> allows full flow through the indirect using the

> DHW priority built into the Ultra module.

>

> It

> does cost you a sigh head pump, but really
> recovers the indirect quickly, and without any

> ghost flow issues on either heat or DHW side.

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



One question.

Tony_23

Good idea, but

a couple of questions.

You have to have a second pump for the DHW anyway, so what do you mean by "you'll need a second high head pump" ?

Where do you exit the jacket with the piping from the bottom taps ? I generally don't hang the Ultra, so the bottom isn't an option normally.

hr

If in

you piped them as a primary secondary, the indirect would not need a high head pump, generally. But getting priority DHW with P/S is a bit more control wiring.

With the indirect as a secondary I would, for sure, install check protection on supply and return sides.

Also the smaller sized Ultras, like the 80 can get by with a low head circ.

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Bob Sweet

hot rod

I don't mean to sound like a moron but could you explain what your talking about in the first paragraph of your last post. Thanks.

Tony_23

I prefer

to pipe the DHW as another primary. Mostly because that's what W/M likes to see, but also because the DHW is usually the highest temp circuit I have, even w/bbd. The DHW priority is built in as a second primary loop, so why go to the trouble of P/S piping it and the associated controls ?

Yes, the 80 and the 105 use 007's.

And, where do you exit the jacket from the bottom taps ?

Bob Sweet

Thanks Tony I got it

I've been running the Indirect as a primary loop as well but instead of running 180* temps off the priority I've been setting the domestic temp at 140*. No complaints yet.

Paul Rohrs

Ultra

I have not yet installed an Ultra.

Hotrod, is the Ultra like the Munchkin with the vision 1 package when there is a call on the DHW, the primary boiler pump drops off and the indirect pump takes over both duties? I think that is what the previous question was about.

HR, did you talk to someone with vital signs and my old work establishment? Hopefully they knew what flanges to give you.

Regards,

PR

Biggerstaffradiantsolutions.com

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Bob Sweet

So hot rod pardon me for being a pest BUT

When you decide to run the indirect in series,as long as the indirect pressure drop and gpm are within the emitters requirements all is well, or I guess I should say as long as there within the boilers requirements all is well.

Chris E

HR do you see

what I mean about the diag that MW gives with the Ultra. I piped it exactly like the picture. I'm sure that I'm getting ghosting back through the boiler circulator that is shown in black on the diag. MW does not say anything about a flow check on that section. Should I just swap out the 007 and put in one with an IFC??

Chris E

Ultra

Hi Paul,

The Ultra is like the Munchkin with the vision 1 package when there is a call on the DHW, the primary boiler pump drops off and the indirect pump takes over both duties.

So when that DHW pump starts pushing water through the indirect and back to the boiler I think it is pushing it back up through the primary boiler pump and out into the main loop.

That is why I'm not sure about the MW diag.

Thanks,

Chris

Tony_23

I haven't had that problem

I pipe the primary heating circ on the inlet side with a flow control on the outlet side. The DHW circ pumps away from the boiler on the outlet side and back to the inlet side. With the flow control on the outlet between the system and the DHW loop's tee, I don't get any ghost flow.

I wish I could post a drawing, but that isn't my area of expertise

hr

Correct, Bob

and the installation info shows how much circ capacity is available for the indirect tank. Typically we pair the Ultra with the Weil "tank in tank" indirect, which has low pressure drop. It also adds that extra 5 or so gallon of buffer capacity that the outer tank holds. Better than just coil capacity in a typical indirect.

I'd like to use Ergo max but performance with low boiler supply temperatures would be a concern.

It all comes down to the application and requirements for BTU loads and temperatures.

In the trophy homes we have been doing the DHW is, by far, the largest load. We generally just do spot radiant in bathrooms and kitchens in larger homes.

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hr

Exactly, Paul

if you want to use the DHW priority and temperature increase, you need to add a relay to pull in the primary AND DHW tank pump for the call. You will get a small moment of high temperature into the primary loop when the call ends.

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hr

I like

to use the Grundfos 15-58 with the 3 speeds for extra adjustability. It also has the intergral check, in the correct location

When I use the factory supplied high head Tacos (in larger Ultras) I use the B&G iso flanges with checks built in. This simplifies the piping. You can always add a second check on the supply side, since you always pump into the return on Ultras, it will cost a bit of pump head, however, when you add extra checks.

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