Viessmann vitola 200 biferral

Steve Ebels_3

If I understand things correctly the Vitola stands alone in the field of noncondensing boilers in its ability to not only accept any return water temp but also supply any water temp desired. It will live happily ever after pumping out 90* supply water temps. The G series Buderus, while able to digest nearly any return temp, must still maintain a minimum supply temp, around 120 IIRC.

Joe_55

Viessmann vitola 200 biferral

Can anyone please help clear up this issue for me: In this boiler which metal comes in contact with the water content, steel or cast iron or what makes it soooo great?

Thank you

Paul Pollets

VBCBOILER

cut and paste into browser:

http://www.viessmann-us.com/web/canada/ca_publish.nsf/Content/Vitola200_ca_english

The stainless steel combustion chamber presses against the "bi-ferral" water jacket. The boiler is capable of low return water temps. When coupled with the chassis burner, it's extremely efficient and a high performance appliance.

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Ron Schroeder_3

Viessmann Biferral strengths and weaknesses

The combustion chamber is manufactured from Stainless Steel and has a thick refractory lined bottom to absorb and refect the heat of the flame. It is inserted into a heat exchange passage made of ribbed cast iron rings. These rings are pressed into a steel cylinder which comprises the actual water jacket. The Stainless Steel combustion chamber is removable without tools for cleaning and inspection. It also has a number of openings machined into its base wherewith the installer can adjust the flue gas temperature to meet local requirements. The Vitola burner has factory approval for Chassis, Vitoflam, Riello and Beckett burners. It can heat with fuel oil, Natural Gas and LPG. What sets it apart from other boilers is its capacity to run safely with very low return temperatures. Control options include Vitotronic 100, Vitotronic 200, Vitotronic 300 and Dekamatik controls. The Divicon series of mixing valves is a direct bolt on option and a second set of connecting stubs on the boiler can be directly connected to an indirect DHW cell. A good technician can easily see 87% combustion efficiency on his/her analyzer, even with NG as fuel, though the published numbers are a bit lower. Please be careful to consider the optimum operating requirements of your chimney/vent as the boiler can withstand lower return temperatures than most "B" vent and masonary chimneys can. Correspondence is welcomed.

Joe_55

Viessmann vitola 200 biferral

Thanks Paul But i was under the impression that the Biferral heat exchanger was made up of two distinct metals in which case only one of them would come in contact with the water. your thoughts

Joe_55

Viessmann vitola 200 biferral

thank you Fred would it be safe to say that this is a steel boiler and with unmonitored leaking could rot out in less than ten years? your input please thanks

Ron Schroeder_3

any boiler can be damaged internally

if the internal water conditions are not monitored. No boiler manufacturer warranties against failure due to water side corrosion. Cast iron boilers generally have heavier section walls than steel boilers. See for instance the literature that describes the Vitorond 200 and compare that with the Vitola 200. The former is a sectional cast iron boler, the latter a steel boiler. Ferrous boiler can and will be damaged by inappropriate water conditions of which a haywire pH will be a first indicator. Experience indicates that we would like to see a pH range of from 9.5 to 11. Lower will contribute to ferrous corrosion and much hifgher will lead to damage to copper and brass components. I have been involved in the replacement of only two Vitola boilers. One was connected to an old failed heating system without the protective benefits of a heat exchanger. The other was an all metallic heating system that was supplied with untreated well water. Both instances were directly attributed to the inappropriate conditions in the heating water. In both cases Viessmann Manufacturing provided replacement equipment in warranty. They did not have to but they did.

Steve Ebels_3

I don't know

What you are fishing for here. Sounds like you want someone to say (admit?) a Vitola will rot out if exposed to fresh water.

Easy answer. Anyone in the boiler or hydronic heat field should know the answer to that automatically. Yes.

That being said, any boiler, regardless of the material will eventually fail due constant makeup water. Copper, Iron, Steel, Stainless Steel, Aluminum, doesn't matter. Fresh water carries two things that are deadly to a supposedly sealed system. Minerals and O2. Enough of those two things will kill not only the boiler but the entire system as well.

Constantin

\"Un-monitored leaking?\"

Steellover, I am a bit confused by your wording, but then again I am just a homeowner with a Vitola in the basement and 4-days of Viessmann training.

IIRC, the water jacket is indeed made of steel with a cast-iron ring inside of it that acts as a HX on the final pass of the flue gases before they exit the boiler. An excellent schematic can be found in the Viessmann Vitola brochure. The Vitoflame is fired into a refractory-lined cup (stainless) and then the flue gases flow over the cast-iron HX en-route to the flue pipe. The cast-iron sections are surrounded/bonded to the steel shell that makes up the inner surface of the boiler tank.

Like all boilers, the Vitola depends on proper maintenance and installation to operate efficiently, reliably, and with longevity. As Mr. Meier points out, monitoring the water conditions (if unknown) is a top concern with any boiler. If there are any water questions, simply send a sample to George at Rhomar and have them formulate a solution for you. I have heard that some installers (hot rod?) have taken to bringing their own de-ionized water to job sites to avoid the issue altogether.

While thicker castings may take longer to fail than steel plate under the right conditions, I doubt that any boiler will have much of an advantage when the ph goes in the wrong direction or lots of O₂, Chlorine, etc. are allowed to pollute the boiler. Another issue with system leaks is the potential for scale due to excess make-up water being forced into the system.

Joe_55

Viessmann vitola 200 biferral

Steve: sincere thanks for your information sorry for the fishing trip but i was having a very difficult time clearing that up that this is indeed a steel boiler, It seems to me that the average H O with baseboard radiation/convection thermal units using a maximum water temp of 180 degs.would be equally served with any of todays quality steel boilers with partial range outside reset and use the savings to buy the oil.I am curious the effect of the cast iron ribbing has on heat transfer.

Thanks again

Steve Ebels_3

Not sure what you're after yet...........

Where does the part about system leaks interface with "today's quality steel boilers"?

The cast iron ribbing provides lot's of sq inches of heat transfer area not typically found in any boiler, let alone a typical steel boiler.

Classifying the Vitola as a "steel boiler" would be roughly akin to putting a Ford Escort and a Cadillac STS in the same category. Sure, they're both cars but that's about where the similarities end. Same with the boilers.

The Vitola is made of different materials, Stainless, Iron and Steel, each selected and used in a particular place because of their suitability for a given task.

Young One

Vitola

Of The Viessmann boilers, the Vitola is the least likely to fail due to system problems or abuse. The only thing you really have to worry about is 02. 02 can be introduced by means of make-up water or non O2 diffusion barrier tubing. The Vitola has a fairly large water jacket and mineral deposits do not appear to cause the same problems as they do with CI sectional boilers.

That being said, in a residential application this boiler comes with a 20 year warranty also it is backed up by the Viessmann name.

I would suggest you check out the Viessmann web site and find your local sales rep and they should be able to answer more indepth questions.

Constantin

The Vitola shines in low-temp applications...

... that's why Viessmann also offers the VitoRond, which is a CI boiler intended for "warmer" applications. I chose the Vitola due to the low temperature capabilities of my emitters and my fuel choice (oil).

The ribbing/bi-ferral HX design is meant to prevent flue gas condensation inside the boiler. Thus, like the G215 from Buderus the boiler is inherently protected where other boilers need pump logic or similar protection. However, you might still get flue gas condensation in the flue (depends on your installation, flue gas temps, etc..)

Matching the boiler steady-state output to the net design-day heat loss is still the name of the game to maximize seasonal efficiency with fixed-input (i.e. single-stage) boilers. The low-mass, gas-fired, condensing, modulating boilers are already there. On the oil side, the Monitor FCX is a step in the right direction. A VitoPlus (or eqv.) combined with a modulating burner like the Herrmann would be sweet indeed.

Constantin

That is my understanding also...

... however, you may or may not need to drill out some of those core plugs in the stainless refractory cup to get your flue temperatures out of the condensing range... or retrofit the VitolaPlus HX to capture the latent heat... or buy low-sulfur fuel to reduce the acidity in the flue gas.

Joe_55

no hidden agenda

Steve thanks: I was having a difficult time finding out which metal contained the boiler water,It has always been the sales pitch of the cast iron boiler people that cast does not rot out like steel does.I guess my quandry is if i do not need low temps for sub level heating many of the features of this boiler are of little use to me.could a more basic boiler suit my needs and i could enjoy significant savings.

P.S the escort also will burn less fuel than the cadillac going from A to B.

Steve Ebels_3

OK, but what's up with

The "unmonitored leaking"? Is the new boiler getting installed on an old system? Why the concern about leaking?

Also, you will find that there is much usable heat even at 120* or< when utilzing baseboard. Bear in mind too, that the Vitola allows for any possible heating system design you may utilize in the future. The way I see it, the near future (5-10 years) will dictate lower water temps than are currently the norm here in the wasteful USofA. Another advantage of the Vitola is that if worst came to worst and you had to change fuels, it's very do-able with the Vitola by just changing the burner. Not so with a more typical boiler.

Glen

Echo Ferd's comments -

but must re iterate the need for SS chimney materials for low temp operation. Flue gas temps are not sufficient to prevent condensation in the stack in purely radiant aps - even with a idhw. Some b vents rot out in as little as 7 years.

S Davis

Vitola

I was on a service call today and found the single wall vent rotting out on a Vitola 200 with the minimum boiler set to 140, I will need fix the problem and replace the vent later this week, probably have to drill some bypass holes.



S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

Glen

I have found -

that the info in the setup manual is exact. It has been my experiences that with out correct stack temp - at the small expense of efficiency - the stack will be a rusty mess in no time at all.

Joe_55

Viessmann vitola 200 biferral

Thanks for all responces professional and H O's.

From all that I have gathered to avail of most of the features of this great appliance it will also be necessary to replace the entire flue and chimney lining with SS an aditional expense of $1000.00 approx this will put it beyond my reach

thanks again

Paul Pollets

Liner issues

All oil-fired appliances work at optimum efficiency with a proper stainless liner... If the liner is omitted on any boiler replacement with a masonry chimney, combustion problems may develop.

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Ron Schroeder_3

chimney liners

should always be installed in any masonary chimney that does not already have a clay based flue liner and in any vent that is not correctly sized for the output of the appliance it serves, no matter the brand or the fuel. I typically encounter oversized venting in most boiler installations. I think this is because installers automatically assume that the connector on the boiler determines the size of the vent, when infact the vent must be sized taking into consideration the connected load and the overall size and shape of the vent. Physics determines the vent requirements not the brand or fuel of the appliance.

Constantin

Don't cheap out on on the liner...

... it'll come back to haunt you or your clients.

Our house had a masonary chimney with but a water heater attached to it. The base of the chimney had fist-sized holes and the water saturation was 99% even 2 stories higher. That chimney had no life left in it, all because a simple 50kBTU/hr water heater filled it with moisture.

In an oversized chimney, you won't get the flue gas speeds up to the point where they won't condense inside the chimney and cause it to rot. Our chimneys were unlined 12"x12" openings faced with 1-layer of brick. Even the Vitola needs but a 6" round flue. There is no way that the flue gases would not stagnate had we not put in a liner.

The next issue is draft. If the chimney is oversized, it may not draft properly.

Never mind the potential CO issues. When we took our interior walls down, there were sections of the chimney that we could see through. A liner can contain the flue gases and the potential creosote, etc. fires.

A insulated, stainless flue liner is like an insurance policy. Over it's life (at pennies a day) it'll ensure that the masonary chimney will not have to be rebuilt later on. I invested in one and sleep better at night for having done so.

heatboy

So...........

if someone wants to use a Vitola, but doesn't want to line the chimney, initially, do you walk away from the sale?

S Davis

B-vent

Be carefull with B-vent also, make sure your flue temps are high enough.



S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

Constantin

I'd call Viessmann...

... and ask them how much it'll raise the stack temperature to when you core out all holes. Then use your experience with similar installs to figure where the stack temp can get up to with all four (?) holes open. If the temp is too low not to cause condensation in the chimney, I would not recommend the boiler.

On the other hand, even if you chose a bottom-of-the-barrel 80% AFUE oil boiler, are their stack temperatures high enough to prevent condensation in oversized masonary chimney's? I doubt that you can prevent flue gas condensation with pretty much any right-sized heating equipment if the chimney is not lined to the manufacturers spec.... but I am happy to be wrong.

Glen

viessmann just called .....

Mark Hunt

Question


What would make a boat sink faster, a small hole or a big hole?

Reason I ask this is because so many people think that a liner is the end all to condensation problems and draft problems. (Not saying you are saying this Constantin)

My testing shows that under-firing is a huge problem here and I have found MANY chimney systems that just do not work. Doesn't matter if there is a liner or not.

I saw one last week that simply will not draft. A liner will not fix it.

Flue gas condensation?? Check your stack temp. Will it matter if you have good draft if the stack temp is 250?

Mark H

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Constantin

Hate to say it...

... but it depends! The size of the hole matters, but so does the location. A hole deep down in the bilge will force far more water into the boat than one high up near the water line. It's one reason that the survival manuals for boats stress the importance of finding leaks fast, stopping them at all costs, etc. Even then, you might need a trash pump to keep up with the flow.

Coming back to the topic at hand, could you elaborate on under-firing? I don't know what that means... is this a case where you have a flue with multiple heating appliances attached to it, where it is sized to meet the combined load, yet where and only one may be firing at any time and thus the flue is grossly oversized at that point in time?

BTW, I have observed condensation in my flue system... My flue gas temp sensor shows why. Besides insulating the flue pipe in the utility room, I will likely also have my contractor core out one hole to bring the stack temp to 250°F or higher.

Mark Hunt

Very good


Bad anaology on my part.(Sorta)

The flue system is just that, a system. It either works or it doesn't. We can discuss that later if you like.

Under-fired equipment will send lower stack temps regardless of draft. Once you drop to 250, expect condensation. Liner or no.

It won't always be under-fired equipment either. Excess air or too much dilution air will do the same. If you have excessive draft, stack temps drop. If you have excessive amounts of secodary air, the flame temp drops and the smnowball starts there. No liner will solve that. For instance. Take a Weil-Mclain EG series boiler. Atmospheric gas boiler. Put the boiler on the ground and you get a percentage of excess air. Raise it and see what happens to your combustion numbers!! Stack temps drop. Other things happen too, but unless you are testing you wouldn't know.

A liner will have no effect on this.

What if the CAZ is so depressurized that draft is impossible? Will a liner fix that?? Nope.

Now back to where we started. If you have a big chimney that is working, you should get excessive draft on a new piece of equipment. Stack effect demands it. So how is it that when you orphan a water heater in a huge chimney it stops working?? BTU's you say. Not enough?? Well, does that mean when an oil fired or gas fired appliance is not firing draft stops?? Does that mean that draft ONLY occurs when a sufficient amount of BTU's are being pumped into the chimney? That tells me that coal burning appliances would draft but oil and gas would not. They shut down and coal did not. So how does the liner solve this?

Now here is a bit of info that some of you may not know. The new FVRI water heaters have stack temps that can exceed 500 degrees. What is the limit on an aluminum liner?

Flue gas condensation CAN be caused by poor draft, but it can also be caused by equipment that is under-fired. It can be caused by equipment that is not correctly installed. It will ALWAYS occur in equipment that has not been tested and tuned.

What we do isn't rocket science, but it is close!

Mark H

P.S. If you do start sinking, do not stop! Floor it!






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hr

Sounds to me

like, if you plan on using a low temperature boiler in a mode where flue gas condenstaion is possible, regardless of correct draft, you would be wise to use a stainless steel liner.

I believe they now offer double walled stainless, and even some flexible products to drop down masonary.

Of course you would need to plan and slope this vent system so that condensate byproduct (water) could exit the vent.

That has always been a question in my mind with these low temperature cast or bi-metal boilers, what is going on in the ENTIRE length of the vent system, when they run cold.

I don't feel any boiler that runs 350° flue gas temperature, while running 100 degree supply temperatures, should be considered a high efficiency boiler, regardless of the country of origin, in light of todays condensing offerings.

Unless we call the condensors Uber Efficient products

hot rod

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