Staple Up vs. Panels vs. BOTH On older Home

Mike T., Swampeast MO

TRVs on those panels Hot Rod?

Heatmeister_2

Staple Up vs. Panels vs. BOTH On older Home

I need to talk to someone who has done alot of older home retro fit. Several of you may have seen me post here before. I am just a homeowner, I attended Wetstock last year hoping to glean more information.

Fast forward one year. I have half my basement project done.(ripped out old concrete and repoured with pex)Basement heating needs are taken care of. However, with my joist bays open I would like to address the main floor and do staple up if it can be done, to replace all me copper fin. BUT I question the ability to heat the main floor with this method given home is in Minnesota and older construction. It has been running copper fin tube for 55yrs. It is an old badly designed monoflo system which is uncomfortable at best.

I wanna discuss "the real world" with someone who does a lot of remodel vs. new construction so they can tell me reality vs. design. I have been told my main floor of 1600sq.ft has a load of 48KBTU or about 30BTU/sq.ft. Bedrooms have carpet, living area has old school oak floors so different rooms MUST have different loads, not a generic load call. Will and Can Staple-up provide enough total heat for my main floor? I have been told that it can provide 12-35BTU/sq.ft.output depending on floor covering. Given older and inconsistent construction, albeit all new windows, will I still need to supplement with Panel Rads??? Staple up is a WHOLE LOTTA work and $$$, BUT if it don't gimme what I need why bother for the whole house. Why not just cut to the chase and do panels rads throughout.

I need a reality CHECK. Can someone help me b/c my wife is getting frustrated. Our project is moving at a snail like pace due to this hang up. I don't want to zip up the walls and ceiling without geting some concrete answers. Heaven forbid we do all this work with staple up and the main floor doesn't heat up on cold days.

Paul Pollets

Options

If you put the home through a software design program you could see the required water temps using transfer plates. I'd be using wall panel radiators in Mn., considering the winter design temps. If you removed the floors, and applied QuickTrak on top, it would be the ideal radiant design, but why remove the flooring? Wall panel rads are cost effective and look good. You can't guess the staple-up application...it mest be engineered.

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Unknown

I disagree, quik trak is outperformed by extruded joist plates. Look at wirsbo's own numbers on it. There is nothing ideal about quik trak except perhaps installation speed.

We have done several systems in MN. Not much in joists. I would say that the room by room calc is a necessity, always, especially here. You're definitely looking at extruded plates in those joists if you go that route, and the question is will your wood handle it, and can you push what you need through the carpet? Only a load calc will answer it.

Panel rads are a "safe" choice. That is, you know they will work and oversizing won't hurt you. But if you want warm floors, you have to crunch some numbers if you don't want to get burned.

Heatmeister_2

can I call you?

Plates would be nice, but my gut tells me that even if I do them, I will STILL need panels. What SW heat calc program is recommended? I have the free SW from slantfin. Will that suffice? Or is there a more comprehensive one I should use or have the local supplier use?

Unknown

Slantfin will overstate your loss a bit, but it will get you in the ballpark. It's a fine starting point.

hr

A mix of both

personally I feel radiant under carpet in bedrooms is not a great match. By the time you figure how much furniture covers a bedroom floor, why bother with radiant.

I agree with Paul. panel rads would provide quick response for set back options, and plenty of comfort for the room.

save the radiant with extruded plates for the "gathering" areas. A must have in the bathrooms and kitchen areas. I like radiant floor in the living and dining areas also. again depending on floor coverings.

30-32 BTUs per square foot is the high side for a floor output in a residential setting, in my view. That runs the floor surface temperature up to a comfortable limit of 83 degrees or so.

hot rod

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Heatmeister_2

Let me add something

I just did a heat calc for my masterbedroom 14'X16' with the Slantfin SW. Because it faces north and has 2 outside walls and an insulated attic space, it has been the toughest to heat. I have 14' of copper fin tube in their now. I believe this would be about 8400BTU's at 170 degrees???. My home is 4" wall construction but this room has all new windows (60sq.ft worth). One wall has been reinsulated, the other, which faces north has that old white fiberglass with black kraft on it with plaster.

I used liberal inputs to error on the poorer construction side and and came up with a range from 9500-11000 BTUs.

Given that the room is cool and tough to heat, does this sound resonable given what I have now? Man, that seen like a lotta BTU needed.

But now do I figure what size panel rad I need given a lower design water temp. Is there a chart for that?

hr

Yes and

I'm about to embark on my first ever panel rad system Two sites to look at for good sizing info www.mysoninc.com and www.heatlines.com

I'm going with the Dianorm product at the Heatlines site. The info for layout and sizing at that site looks suspisciously like Siggy's handi work.

The Myson site has list prices which is handy for getting in the ball park, price wise.

hot rod

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Garret

Wow, those Dianorm rads are pretty. Nice stuff!

Heatmeister_2

Hot Rod I would very interested......

To know how you configure etc..... I am guessing this is a older home. I too have studied all the different brands. Runtal has a model with both radiant and convective(fins) that has about 70% more BTU output than the basic 2 inch wide unit.

Unknown

Runtal can custom make anything you want, pretty much. have them send you a binder. Their custom radiator lists are extensive and sizing info is in it. then again, they aren't shy with the price tag either!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Heatmeister: You did NOT mention two VERY important things...

1) What form of "staple-up"? That vague term seems to apply to everything from bare tubes attached to the side of joists to tubes in heavy conduction plates.

2) How are the floors constructed? You only mentioned one layer. Is that all? Not uncommon for old homes to have two or even three layers of wood flooring. If your floors are thick and/or multiple layered and with the relatively high heat loss of many older homes bare-tube staple-up may be hopeless and even heavy conduction plates may require quite high operating temperature.

Do you have a Rad Pad? If not, ORDER ONE NOW! Available here at "Books and More". Inexpensive, very easy to use and seems to be quite accurate.

Heatmeister_2

I should have mentioned

The entire main floor has a subfloor of 1950's 3/4" X 6" diagonal pine. On top of that I have:
1) Main living area 600sq. ft with another 3/4" oak flooring for a total of 1 1/2" wood!!! My big concern is here.
2) Kitchen 300sq. ft. has tile with with 1/4" hardibacker board under the tile. I think this mass could heat nicely.
3) TWO bedrooms have carpet and pad ONTOP of the OAK flooring. I see a problem here.
4) Master bedroom 225sq. ft. plywood, carpet and pad over subfloor. Problem area also....I think. MY heat calculation for this room alone is between 9000-10500 BTU.

So as much as I would like to staple up THERMOFIN C (doubled up in each 16" joist bay) I think I may still require Panels. Putting up the plates for the entire main floor is a whole lotta work,(around 400-500 4'x4") not to mention around $3K in material cost alone.

I am now leaning toward plates in Kitchen and Bath. Both have tile with panels everywher else.

I will know more after a heat calc of each room is finished.

Unknown

Have you considered radiant ceiling in the non-tile areas?

It'd be half the cost of panel radiators, easy, and closer to floor heat in terms of comfort.

Heatmeister_2

?

I have textured sprayed ceiling and tongue an groove in the kitchen. How would that work?

Unknown

hm. I have no idea what a textured sprayed ceiling is.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

You REALLY need to run the numbers (and the Rad Pad will TRULY help.

From the info you've provided my basic suggestions:

Forget about heating carpeted floors of the construction you mentioned at anywhere near the losses you presume. Either retain the baseboard or use TRVd panels.

For any bare floors (not including kitchen) of the construction you mention, two runs of T-fin type "C" per joist bay should be OK. If you're willing to go to the trouble, use copper tube in the T-fin as this will be a GREAT asset should you ever use a condensing/modulating boiler.

If you're also working on the FINISHED surface of the bath floors, remove one of the wood layers and use 1/2" cement board and tile with T-fin underneath. If the bath floors are in rough shape and can't handle the removal of one layer, consider removing everything down to the joists and using Warmboard or T&G plywood with T-fin and cement board or similar on top whichever best suits to keep reasonably even floor level between rooms.

Kitchens are always wild cards. Cabinets cover a significant area of the floor yet they have the highest occupancy gain. Copper in the T-fin for the kitchen with PEX for the rest? Again--run the numbers!

stephen_4

on top

The extruded plates below do match the output of Quik Trak /Climate panel above. It shows how much more output you get out of "extruded" aluminum vs. any sheet aluminum. That is why nothing even comes close to the output/efficiency of the Raupanel.

Unknown

extruded plates actually BEAT quik trak/climate panel by a noticeable margin.

Raupanel, of course, would do the same hands down. My second favorite install when cost is not the major factor to consider Because, of course, there is another method that gets you there...