Opinions for an upcoming repair/repipe job (Glenn H.)

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keep the Lochinvar for the snowmelt if it is sized correctly. Copper tube boilers work very well for snowmelt when protected properly. It looks fsirly new? Measure the square footage of the snowmelt. I feel 100 BTU/ sq ft is minimun if they want fairly reasonable performance.

Then use the new Ultra for the house and garage load.

Mixing snowmelt and heating loads gets awkward when the loads are that mismatched.

Will you glycol the garage with a HX or glycol the the entire house/ garage system.

Another option would be the snowmelt and garage on one boiler, as they would both be glycolled. This saves a HX in the system.

If I'm not mistaken that Efficiency Plus is a two stage fire. Low fire may handle the shop just fine.

hot rod

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Glenn Harrison_2

Need opinions to repair this system

Went to a call the other day. Customer complaint that the snow melt system doesn't work automatically, and that she doesn't understand the system and wants opinions. If I only knew what I was in for. First, I found two boilers for a system that could have been done with one boiler. Second, the snow melt system is leaking from almost every solder joint, and the black pipe fittings at the boiler are dripping to the point the customer put a pan under the piping. I then noticed the piping is severly reduced in size at the boiler, the pump is in the wrong spot for this boiler as far as I'm concerned (Pumping away from the boiler, and towards the PONPC). Also see piping is crooked and unsupported, manifolds for snow melt are bowing downward in the middle, and a backflow preventer was installed on the radiant heat boiler, but not on the snow melt boiler where the antifreeze protection is needed. Then the customer pointed out that the radiant heat boiler won't work when the snow melt boiler is on. I figured out the installer installed a lockout relay on the radiant boiler to shut down the radiant if the snow melt is on, due to the fact there is only a 5" B-vent to handle both boilers. I then looked at the snow melt sensor and realised the sensor was installed under the 18" soffits so that it has a hard time detecting snow. Last I fired the snow melt up the snow melt boiler, and after a short time it started making a lot of racket (small jackhammer comes to mind ) :0 I asked my cutomer about this and she said it has been this noisy since day one 5 years ago!!!

I then inspected the radiant heat boiler. First thing I noticed is a two loop manifold with no piping connected! Found out tubing goes to 3 car garage and was never hooked up. Customer wondered why the garage was cold. I also saw the previously mentioned lockout relay just hanging out of a 1900 box with no cover, the 4 way mixing valve is set on number 10 which will eventually allow the floor to get to hot.

So now comes my questions.

1. Correctly sizing the new proposed Weil McLain boiler? The radiant boiler is sized at 105,000 BTU's which is about right for the radiant and garage (if the garage was hooked up). However the snowmelt boiler is 200,000 btu's, but considering the 1" supply return lines to the manifold, the Grundfos UP26-64 pump, and the 9 loops of 5/8" pex, I am assuming the boiler is oversized for the application. So what is the best way to determin the existing snow melt load?

2. What is the best way to control this system and the snow melt especially, keeping in mind I have already planned for an Ultra boiler.

3. I am open to any other suggestions on this one. I am already planning a total tear out and repipe including replacing the snowmelt and radiant manifolds.

Weezbo

Wow!.....

i just opened the first two pictures, If there is that much flux outside the pipe...er...the other tub must be inside the boilers by now.

....Looked at a couple more... Guy musta had stock in the bushing manufacturing plant in his earlier days:)

You have to break out some thing along the lines of a compressor before you over commit yourself to that snow melt.

i am off to watch the Elegant universe ...BRB

[Deleted User]

I'm thinking...

Sawzall surgery for a start. You touch it, you own it...

ME

Glenn Harrison_2

That's the game plan ME

cut out everything right down to the pex tubing and start over. Pressure test garage zone, new mod/con boiler, heat exchanger for snow melt, new manifolds, new controls new piping etc. etc.

Constantin

What a shame...

> Went to a call the other day. Customer complaint

> that the snow melt system doesn't work

> automatically, and that she doesn't understand

> the system and wants opinions. If I only knew

> what I was in for. First, I found two boilers for

> a system that could have been done with one

> boiler. Second, the snow melt system is leaking

> from almost every solder joint, and the black

> pipe fittings at the boiler are dripping to the

> point the customer put a pan under the piping. I

> then noticed the piping is severly reduced in

> size at the boiler, the pump is in the wrong spot

> for this boiler as far as I'm concerned (Pumping

> away from the boiler, and towards the PONPC).

> Also see piping is crooked and unsupported,

> manifolds for snow melt are bowing downward in

> the middle, and a backflow preventer was

> installed on the radiant heat boiler, but not on

> the snow melt boiler where the antifreeze

> protection is needed. Then the customer pointed

> out that the radiant heat boiler won't work when

> the snow melt boiler is on. I figured out the

> installer installed a lockout relay on the

> radiant boiler to shut down the radiant if the

> snow melt is on, due to the fact there is only a

> 5" B-vent to handle both boilers. I then looked

> at the snow melt sensor and realised the sensor

> was installed under the 18" soffits so that it

> has a hard time detecting snow. Last I fired the

> snow melt up the snow melt boiler, and after a

> short time it started making a lot of racket

> (small jackhammer comes to mind ) :0 I asked my

> cutomer about this and she said it has been this

> noisy since day one 5 years ago!!!

>

> I then

> inspected the radiant heat boiler. First thing I

> noticed is a two loop manifold with no piping

> connected! Found out tubing goes to 3 car garage

> and was never hooked up. Customer wondered why

> the garage was cold. I also saw the previously

> mentioned lockout relay just hanging out of a

> 1900 box with no cover, the 4 way mixing valve is

> set on number 10 which will eventually allow the

> floor to get to hot.

>

> So now comes my

> questions.

>

> 1. Correctly sizing the new

> proposed Weil McLain boiler? The radiant boiler

> is sized at 105,000 BTU's which is about right

> for the radiant and garage (if the garage was

> hooked up). However the snowmelt boiler is

> 200,000 btu's, but considering the 1" supply

> return lines to the manifold, the Grundfos

> UP26-64 pump, and the 9 loops of 5/8" pex, I am

> assuming the boiler is oversized for the

> application. So what is the best way to determin

> the existing snow melt load?

>

> 2. What is the

> best way to control this system and the snow melt

> especially, keeping in mind I have already

> planned for an Ultra boiler.

>

> 3. I am open to

> any other suggestions on this one. I am already

> planning a total tear out and repipe including

> replacing the snowmelt and radiant manifolds.

Constantin

What a shame...

... I have heard estimates for snow-loads between 100-150BTU per square foot.

Perhaps I would worry less about the boiler for that application being oversized because presumably it wouldn't get used all that much? Or, you go with a boiler that has a very wide range of modulation like a Trinity 400 and do it all from one box? I'd consider Tekmar controllers for the whole rig, and hydronicsmike, I'm sure, could help you a lot in that department.

As for starting from scratch, that's what I would do too. There are fewer joints in there that are not leaking than the ones that are. I'd also test the glycol to see if it's still any good. May have gone bad given the conditions.

Rodney Summers

i just saw the first 2 pictures also and i don't understand why people use none copper straps on copper don't they know anything about dissimilar metals.

boy i bet he could not Waite to run up stairs and get the home owner's and show them there new boiler :-)

im sure Glenn you will fix everything the way it should have been. i don't understand how people could work at a job like that and step back and say to themselves man look at that top notch job i just did and be proud of them self's.

if i did work like that id just pack it in and say i need to find something else because im not good at this.

or at least learn i would never leave a job looking like that.

id demand help and id be trying to learn as much as i can so this never happens again.

i took 2 weeks and a load of copper fittings and soldered all day. in all position like i did when i learned how to weld.

i can say when i look at my solder and weld joints im proud of them.

anyway good luck Glenn i look forward to the new improvements.

thanks
JASON

Brad White_9

Dog is in the details, Jason. Good eyes!

With installations like that, dielectric corrosion is the LEAST of their worries.

Normally, dielectric corrosion is not an issue unless an electrolyte is present. In this case- it is!

I am with ME on the King Solomon Sawzall Solution. Warrant only what you replace, not what remains buried. Pressure test as a baseline. Clear contract and scope. But the situation is in the best hands and can only improve.

Brad White_9

100-150 BTUH/SF

is a good start and probably fine for most residences versus a snowfall of an inch an hour in the mid 20's F. Very micro-climate dependent. USAF standards at Loring AFB were in the 300-400 BTUH/SF range if I recall. Keeping nuke-bearing B-52's aloft waiting for snowplows is not an option....

Weezbo

Glenn..

Did you find the length numbers on that pex? i can sorta back engineer some stuff when i have numbers..*~/:)

it would also help if..the outside temp was known the temp drop between the supply and return header any balancing valves and the type of pump we have the boiler size...the sq ft of surface area might be kinda good and maybe the average wind speed....boiler and pipe size we got.

Glenn Harrison_2

Will have to make an appointment to get those numbers

The job has not been scheduled yet, so it is in the early design stages. I could probably run by the house and get the sq. ft. of the driveway. Outside design temp for my area (Chicago) is -10ºF. The existing pump is a Grundfos UP26-64.

Glenn Harrison_2

Thanks for the input, Constantin

i really do want to try to figure out the snowmelt load, and I've never done one before. Right now based on the existing boilers I would need an WM Ultra 310 (310,000 BTU) but if I get the load down I'm betting I could use a Ultra 230. I'm not familiar with the Trinity and have no idea who sells them in my area.

I was also planning Tekmar controls. Just looking for a little input on what controls and sensors to use, as I haven't used Tekmar yet either.

As far as the glycol goes, I'm not taking any chances with it. I'm removing it completly, and will flush the glycol loop with a cleaner. Then recharge it with new premixed glycol. I'm quite sure the glycol is highly acidic right now.

Weezbo

i like the idea of keeping the Lochinvar, too.

knowing the pex lengths would be good though.if any of you have to determine lengths i have a tool that is inexpensive and may be used to gain cirulation on freeze or slush...i get some batteries in electric camera and take picture.is cool tool :)light:) inexpensive:) easy intuitive designe:)