No Hartford Loop - Source of Crud?

John Van Hoesen

I popped out that idiotic copper fitting in the galvanized T, put a bucket under it and put a 3/4" boiler drain into one of the main vent tappings... attached a washing maching hose to a boiler drain off my domestic water and slowly pumped water into the main, let it drain through the lower return piping and cleaned out about 20 buckets of crap!!! Then I built up a good head of water and opened up the boiler drain at the bottom of the boiler and emptied out that lower return pipe that was going into the bottom of the boiler. Hope this works, took FOREVER... going to run it tomorrow to see how the cleaning went. :)

cheers
J~

John Van Hoesen

Thoughts...

Hi all -

I've attached a few pics. No hartford loop on this system, I wasn't worried about it since it works just fine, until I read Dan's Book (LAOSH). He suggests that even dry returns have a HL. So it got me thinking that maybe one of the reasons my boiler is purging out so much crap is because the steam is wandering up the equalizer and returns? Possibly?

I also realize that I need t pipe in a HL next summer, because if that return pipe fails, I'm going to drain the boiler rather quickly. I also noticed the main drip off the main isn't vertical, but comes off at a 45d angle. I'll fix this next summer too. Any thoughts on the lack of a HL and crud in the system, I'm still flushing out rusty crap and like I said, the boiler block is "new."

Thanks again!
cheers
John

Bob W._3

Did you finally get the water to run clean?

thfurnitureguy_4

John, are your returns ever wet? Do you have any water seals or steam traps? I seem to remember that you have 1 pipe steam. So each drip should end into a wet return or a water seal. I cant tell by the pictures if the returns are below the water line. if not the steam will go toward the main vent via the main or the returns or both. As for crud. sorry no answer for that. The HL is a safety device to keep some water in the boiler if a return rusts through ect. I believe Burnham calls for the loop to enter the Equalizer 2-4" below the active water line. Check your book on that. Glen Stanton is the Burnham god on the wall He may have an answer about water quality ect. Is it heating fast and even? What kind of bills are you getting. Sorry more questions than answers.

John Van Hoesen

Nope...

Just finished skimming out some nice rusty brown stuff. It's part of my daily routine now, come home, change clothes and skim out the brown crud. No more oil though! LMAO...

I'll let you know when it's clean clean...

J~

John Van Hoesen

That's the weird thing...

It's running fine otherwise... it heats quickly, heats well and no water hammer, none. All of the radiators return to the main and follow it back to the boiler in my crawl space. Then the water drops down into that weird T-looking return and they enter the bottom of the boiler. The T-looking return is just barely below the water line.

I WILL put a HL in ASAP at the end of this heating season. No steam traps, one way valves, nada... nothing. Just two mains that go under the crawl space, feed the radiator risers and then the water flows back down. Not a huge house, not long runs, nothing weird, just dirty.

J~

thfurnitureguy_4

I ask because i just re-did my returns. My drips were ganged into a common dry return and dipped down just before the boiler much like yours are. The way i understand the problem is that the steam will follow the short path to the main vent. if a radiator along the run drips to a dry return it will let the steam go past the radiator and up the return toward the main vent. it than can close the vent before all of tha air has purged from the main. thus causing slow heat to some of the radiators. I guess yours is one of those odd ducks that just work. How is it on a warmer heat day? do all your rads heat part way as the stat is satisfyed. or are some hot and some not?

John Van Hoesen

It all works...

No issues or problems... part of me just wants to stop skimming and just let it run, but I KNOW it will run even more efficiently if it's clean. Yeah, odd duck I guess.

J~

Unknown

Yeah , the cruddy water

will still work its way back to the boiler even with a HL . Hey , I see a perfect place for a valve and drain - right where the nipples with Teflon meet the union . You can also power flush the return this way - shut the return valve and connect a hose to the drain . Fill the returns with water then flush it out . This way you can clean the return pipes without introducing fresh water to the boiler . Last resort if you can't get it clean is to replace the return piping . But you say the system is working fine , I'd leave it be .

Foreman

\"dirt leg\"

I put a 2"X6" dirt leg (like on gas line)on the bottom of my Hartford along with a 1" drain valve,connected to a hose. Its the lowest point and works well!! I have a basement drain too which makes it easy to rid the crud.

John Van Hoesen

I would if I could...

But no HL... so I'm just skimming and then draining out the bottom. It worries me because I keep introducing new water every time I skim it... oye.

J~

John Van Hoesen

HL

Thanks for the advice Ron, I'm just worried that if I put in a valve and a drain, I won't be able to fit in a HL. My other option is to put a boiler drain in that galvanized T someone cobbed in (second image with the copper plug sticking out) and slowly let water run through that part of the return, hopefully clearing out some of the crud.

It's amazing that I'm still seeing rusty crap coming out, I have honestly skimmed out this boiler about 6-7 times. I let it steam, then I trickle out the boiler... and the minute the boiler comes on again and starts to make steam, the little rusty particles appear again. I think the TSP freed up a lot of this, but good god, there's so much!

j~