Carbon Monoxide Policies

Firedragon_4

Put this one in your Funk & Wagnall's.

Just received about two dozen phone calls that Keyspan and NStar walk in to do an energy audit and do a combustion test first.

If the CO is over 110 pppm they walk out.
All oilheated homes with no gas on the premises, how about that?

Needless to say some oilmen are getting some very rude awakenings about 'Combustion and Oil Burning Equipment' this season, great name for a book, huh? LOL!!!

Happy Thanksgiving to you both!

Tom_35

Carbon Monoxide Policies

I need some input on how others handle CO issues. We had our second "issue" this fall with dangerous CO readings (500 ppm) and the customers get ticked because their system was working when we got there and we won't leave it running.

We try to explain to the customer about the immediate danger and even tell them they owe us nothing since we won't turn their system back on. Still, they accuse us of trying to rip them off.

What do others do in this situation? By the way, our techs are trained through National Comfort Institute guidelines and we check CO on every call we go on. Our competitors don't check for CO, and if called on, they will try to locate a detector and stick the probe into a supply air grille and that is their analysis.

Tom Atchley
Ft. Smith, AR

Unknown

Tom, education many times

up front helps to ease the burden with the customer. I have a little course I teach called Combustion Analysis For Profit. It is a presentation given to the customer before testing and alerts them to the safety and efficiency concerns of your company. By preparing the customer before hand with some information and then show them the test results with a print out helps.

I have even taken customers into the basement and let them see how I am testing and let them see the results first hand of the test.

Education and and good salesmanship go along way. Talk to the lady of the house and if you convince her of safety concerns for her family, the old man will surely be influenced by the "neck that turns the head".

Mark Hunt

CO policy


When we run into dangerous CO situations and the customer doesn't believe us, we call the utility. The utility will come out and shut EVERYTHING off if we tell them we have high CO and the HO won't authorize the repair. I've only had to do this a couple times. Most of the time the occupants understand what is at risk if they allow the situation to go uncorrected. Carrying a few news story headlines about CO deaths in your truck is a good idea. Ask the owner if they would like to see THEIR names in the story.

In situations where the fuel source is oil, not much you can do. You could disable the equipment but the Ho could get someone back in there to fire it up again.Perhaps a call to the local fire chief would convince the HO of the seriousness or maybe the health department??

As you well know, we can't leave equipment in operation if it is not functioning safely. If you can't get the HO to agree that the situation is dangerous, have them sign a paper that removes you from any liability should they or anyone in the house gets sick or killed. Sometimes that will jar them into reality and sometimes not.

This is America after all, land of the free to kill yourself and your family.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jim Davis_3

CO Limits

Just had two CO situations in the past several days which prompted another call to CSA Labs. One case a manufacturer told a contractor that 1100ppm in the flue gas of a boiler is no concern and then a contractor told a homeowner that 650ppm in her boiler was okay as long as it is venting.
All equipment is certified for safety according to ANSI Standards Z21. Z21-13 is for boilers and states that they are certified to produce a maximum of 400ppm of CO "air free". This would be the amount of CO that is read minus the dilution of Oxygen. Most analyzers calculate this automatically. Furnaces are Z21-47(400ppm), residential water heaters is Z21-10.1(200ppm). Equipment operating above these levels are operating outside their approved safety rating and according to Robert Stack at CSA, they should not be operated.
Mark, you have one of the few utilities that might actually know the difference but in most of the country, if they can't read CO in the space there isn't a problem.
When I asked for copies of the ANSI CO standards I was informed that we must purchase the manual for $600-$800. I am sure someone out there has a copy of it.

Jim Davis_3

P.S.

Many of my students has said that as soon as they try to talk to their customers about CO and try to educate them, their customers shy away and think they our using scare tactics. I have seen this over and over. It is the womean that you need to convince. Unfortunately selling efficiency works better initially and then the CO works in.

Unknown

Jim, you bring up a point that

has really bothered me. Why do we have to pay so much for ANSI Standards literature. I was recently required by local authority to have a certain standard for a court case. The standard was 12 pages and cost $280.00 the lawyer I am working with is paying for this but it is insanity to have to pay this much.

I wonder if there is someplace these standards are available for free (I think they should be FREE)but, I am sure there is some good reason why they are so much money.

When I opened my training center I was told I had to have a reference library of ANSI Standards. When I priced all of them that pertain to gas equipment the total cost was $9,000 for everything. That by the way does not include updates when they change.

Jim Davis_3

Standards

Timmie,
I would think all this material would be available at the Library. Standards, Code Books can cost a fortune. Thousands of $$$ cost for 5 cents worth of actual usable information.

Jim Davis_3

Thanks

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours also!!

Glen

another parellel

In our beautiful province of B.C. - the workers compensation standard for working in a CO poisoned space is 25 ppm for 8 hours. Generally once I relay that bit of info to the HO with the worst case idea of a plugged vent - they soon do the math (8x25). I also carry a few copies of the CMHC discussion paper of CO in the home. (http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema/gesein/abhose/abhose_ce25.cfm?renderforprint=1)
If I am not able to correct the problem or the HO refuses then a call to the gas inspector is next. Harsh step this time of year - but would rather have the folks alive and cold than just cold.

mark smith

dude .....

rest assured the Lawyer ain't payin' for that standard ....

You are

Unknown

Thanks Jim it is at our

large library downtown Providence. I just hate having to go that route when I should be able to have it in my library. When I was with the utility we had all of the standards.

Mark Hunt

Obi Wan


When the young Jedi calls, the utilities come runnin'! I use Jedi mind tricks on them!

I have never really bothered to find out exactly what out local utilities have for policy on CO. I know that they will clear the house at 12ppm ambient.

When I call and tell them that I have a combustion appliance that is producing high levels of CO, they have always responded quiickly and never once tried to second guess me. Perhaps they do this so that they do not get sued and that's just fine by me.

The utilities in our area do not service equipment and as far as testing goes, they only test for gas leaks and draft.

You told a long time ago Jim what to expect from the powers that be when it comes to CO and combustion testing. You were right. But I also told you that I can be an incredible PITA when I get something in my head. It helps when the truth is on your side!

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"