Intermittent Problem

Rookie_4

I've been to the same call twice for the boiler going out on what seems to be a flame out and found nothing to be the cause. It is a FHW system with a stack relay, intermittent ignition, and a triple aquastat with a tankless coil. The system is old with a steel expantion tank and a 1725 rpm burner. The first time I was there some oil was in the chamber, tonight there was none at all but it was tripped. Helix is clean and solid, new tank filter, new pump screen, electrodes are new, pump pressure and cut off are good, draft is -.02", and the ignition has a strong white spark. Everything pulls in on time and it has a nice smooth start up and cycles good, at least while I am standing there. Any thoughts on what is on it's way out? I did find a nuetral that wasn't real secure but that wouldn't explain the oil in the chamber or the fact it starts up when the reset is pushed.........Thanks ROOKIE

J.C.A._3

My Minds Eye.....

Is quiclkly drawn to 2 things. #1 the tankless, and #2 the time of the year.

#1, could it be that the transformer has been "hot wired" to the #3 terminal in the stack relay...therefore running constantly as the motor runs? If so, maybe there is a breakdown happening during a heat call,(long run...see #2)and when there is a call shortly thereafter for hot water, it fails to spark. Been there, seen it but only after a few more callbacks!

Now for #3. This is a golden opportunity to bring this heating system into the 21st century. This is 40-50 year old technology being kept alive in a time when fuel prices are moving up. It's time to bring this home into this century, kicking and screaming as the homeowners might be.

Show them some hard numbers and how the money spent will actually pay for itself in relatively short order.(if there is a new automobile in the driveway, explain nicely how they lost 4000$ driving it off the lot, and how just a bit more for a heating system would have paid for itself in about the same time they may drive it, in fuel and electricity saving alone).

The fire is hot and it's yours for the poking. Strike now! Chris

Rookie_4

Chris

The transformer is on #3 and correct again on the age of the system, the gentleman dates it at 50 years old. I'll never track down another transformer for this beast and the firebox is too small and fragile looking to retro another burner to it. I hear you on the bringing a new system in but
seniors on a fixed income off SS from a lifetime in a shoe factory just can't make the numbers work. The guy sold me on how bad it needs to be replaced but he is just well enough off to be out of reach for any kind of help and not well enough off to replace it. The house was clean but rough and the car in the driveway looked tired also.
Thanks for the thoughts, I'll see if it runs for more than two days this time and take it from there.......Dan

pitman9

What was the output voltage of the ignition transformer?

What's the over fire draft?

Rich P.

All the usual suspects

I'm not sure so I am asking, Have you changed the nozzle?
Strainer? Oil Quality? How about this one-worn burner coupling (this one got me just the other day) This will cause intermittent lock outs. Please also remember
The stack switch has a long safety timing so its gotta
be something.
Part clogged fuel line? is it gravity flow,easy to check..
This actually can be fun.. Let us know what you find.
Rich P.

Weezbo

Dude*~/:)

you have found a "Vintage" P.O. equipment first the reset...small vaccum leak or seal on pump. i may be far away however i have twisted a hand at many of these...check your pump pressure and see if it is a steady 100 psi....

do you have Real electrodes in the gun or are they made out of wire clothes hangers? i know you said they were new buh i am just trying to visualize the burner. lets open this discussion up a bit more, why havent you lost the stack switch and upgraded the burner with a fire eye and primary?

Rookie_4

Pump pressure is right on and steady and the electrodes are new. Supply house laughs and digs out a book to comfirm they are no longer available. He takes me out back to see what we can match on a 9/16 barrel and finds a lone pair sitting on the shelf collecting dust for the same brand burner. (Arcoflame) I pulled the whole stack out and it is clean and solid, nozzle filters etc. are all new. 126 Vac
going to the transformer, -.02" draft. The coupling seems OK when it's running by what I see on the pump gge. but no I haven't actually pulled it out."yet"........ROOKIE

Jeff_12

Have you done an ohm test on the motor. A bad spot could cause intermitent lock outs.

Steve_35

I think you're thinking of a bad centrifugal start switch.

If the motor wasn't starting he wouldn't have the pool of oil he mentioned. The oil would indicate the burner didn't light off.

He hasn't mentioned just what the transformer output voltage was. We find several a year that will light most of the time but the voltage is low. Anything below 9,000v is problematic. I suspect there are few of us that can tell the difference between a 9,000v and 10,000v arc.

Weezbo

shhh *~/:)

meg ohm meter with the crankup handle:)

Mark Anderson_3

Replace the stack with a cad cell/ primary control. Replace the transformer with a solid state Carlin (you can get these to mount up on just about anything-you may have to use the mounting plate off the old transformer), double check your electrode adjustment, check for good steady oil delivery (not just pressure), and make sure you're not over aired.

Or replace the burner if he can't afford the whole boiler.

Rookie_4

The firebox is small and looks very fragile. The unit is 50 years old and looks like pulling much of anything apart on it would just snowball into more issues. The burner is an "Arcoflame" with the nozzle gun assembly sideways and the electrode ends spread and snap into clips from the transformer which is also mounted on the side under the motor. A new burner set up would be the way to go for life support on the old beast but looking at the system gives you the same feeling as putting a new 350cu.in. crate motor into an old rusted Vega that was on it's last leg....ROOKIE

darin_2

I have two thoughts. My experience with oil is limited but what the hell, this is a brainstorming site. I have heard there is a check valve in some guns between the nozzle and the inlet tube. It maintains a certain volume of pressure in the tube even when the burner is off. A coworker takiing an oil class stubbled on this and it makes sense. Also if the pump is going bad, the delay in the oil tube building pressure may be enough to lock the system out(seen that one too). I almost forgot, make sure the line is bled(ust making sure).

J.C.A._3

Rookie,

Sid Harveys makes a "six-way transformer", that will mount to that plate.Ive done dozens of them.

Move the Transformer to the #4 wire when/if you replace it and you'll never hear about it again.

I also think that whoever suggested checking the motor for a dead spot has hit on a good idea. Got an extra 1700$ sitting around? If so, Alan Mercurio is running a special on an On-Watch #51 this month...go for it.(OTT.com) Fine peice of equipment that will make you a hero in so many cases. Chris

Rookie_4

Thanks for the heads up on the 6-way. I did a courtesy call
yesterday afternoon and it has been running fine. All I can figure is that MAYBE there was something in the helix and when I pulled out the stack and was poking around to check it out whatever was hanging it up came out. (?)Time will tell. I figured if I ended up back there I would pull the motor to check the coupling and throw a meter on the motor while it was out. I actually have a motor from a junk burner I pulled to do a retro on it's boiler. It was the only good thing left. (2-4 on rotation)
I almost put the trans. back on #4 the first time I was there but figured someone jumped it to intermittent for a reason. Reading between the lines on Pitman9's post I should breakdown and pick up an actual transformer tester.
There's just something about pulling a 10,000V+ spark around on the end of a screwdriver that gets me going. LOL
Thanks again guys...............ROOKIE

Steamhead (in transit)

\"Arcoflame\"?

Is this in an old American-Standard boiler? If so, what model?

Rookie_4

The only thing I got off it was "The New Arcoflame" I don't belive it is American Standard. I've run into some old American Standards and this is nothing like them. The burner is set up almost the same as the old model 62 W/M. The clean out is on the side like a Burnham but it is taller and narrow. (Green) once upon a time it had the large circ. about half way up on the front to the right side. Doesn't look like it was a gravity system ever because it is piped in a 3/4" loop and that looks like it's been there as long as the boiler. View port is round like what we see now but with a thick cast cover......ROOKIE

csmclean

Arcoflame burner

From your description of the burner, it sounds like a copy of the old Beckett "Commodore" model, originally introduced in 1937.

http://www.beckettcorp.com-history.pdf

has an interesting history, published for Beckett's 50th anniversary.

Craig

Rookie_4

Can't pull up that link Craig, would have like to see it.

csmclean

Beckett Commodore

Sorry 'bout that; must be an outdated link. If you go here:

http://www.beckettcorp.com

and look at the "history" section, you will find a couple of thumbnail-size pictures of the "Commodore". It was of the "sidewinder" design, as I've heard it termed, w/ a motor which has a shaft sticking out both ends to drive the fan and fuel unit. The xformer is below the motor/pump assy. Named because Reg Beckett introduced it at a trade show in NYC's Commodore Hotel.

At one point, I was able to bring up the patent dwgs on the:

www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

site. It took a bit of horsing around to find it, but it's there.

Craig

Rookie_4

I found it. Different set up Huh? Thats not what this one looked like and the boiler is a "Arcoleader Boiler" with a
"Arcoflame Burner" I haven't had a chance to do a search on it yet out here but it is supposedly 50 years old. Here is another one I ran into "National Heat Extractor" it is an old steam boiler with a Carlin hanging off the bottom of the backside of it. It actually ran pretty good except the LWCO was pretty plugged up. Nobody told him to blow it down weekly during heating season so he never did. He bought the house 2 years ago and would keep checking the water level because it got low and started to run away last winter. He caught it when all the pipes were burning off the dust..Dan