Condensing wall hung boilers

Brad White_9

of God's Country when it comes to hydronics...

Yes, wall hung condensing boilers are quite reliable and become moreso. The first and second learning curves are done, technology and materials have caught up with the process.

There are as many adherents to their favorite brands as there are brands. Any and all must be suitably sized and selected for the heat load of your home (or domestic HW if it is greater). All must enjoy a proper installation by a contractor who cares enough to service you. As to finding a professional to install one, try....Find a Professional above on this page and type in your zip code.

As for brands, as stated, it is who sells and installs. But because you asked, I would say the best is Viessmann (Vitodens) with Buderus, NTI, Weil-McLain Ultra, Lochinvar Knight and others rounding out the pack. There are others of course, this is just the roughest quick, top of my head list I could come up with...

I look back at years of specifying the best equipment over the years and shake my head at what can be done with efficiencies today... incredible.


My $0.02

Brad

Dave Cabrera, Long Island, NY

Condensing wall hung boilers

I would like to install a gas condensing wall hung boiler to heat my home but am concerned about their reliability/dependablity. I have read all the pros . . . efficiency, etc. Are these systems as good as they sound? Should I consider one manufacturer over another? Will I have problem finding someone who can install and service this type of boiler?

Maine Ken

I have it on extremely recent and reliable information that the Viessmann is a 20+ year unit. If I was going gas, this would be in my house!!!!

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S Ebels

Couldn't agree more

My gut feeling is that most of the wall hung condensers out there are going to be 8-12 year life span. The lower number, or even less if they are neglected and the higher number if they are well taken care of with good water quality monitoring and annual service.

The Vitodens is in a class of one when it comes to quality materials and construction. I would not hesitate to say it's a 20 year boiler based on the performance of ones we have in the field.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

What type of heat emitters in your house?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Such is a telling statement from an experienced pro.

But, ALL of the boilers in this class EXPECT routine (1 year, 2 year max) cleaning/inspection. Again though, the Vitodens [seems] to be in a class by itself with regards to being cleaning/inspection friendly. Fast, intuitive and almost impossible to make a mistake with self-adjusting air-fuel mix that is only verified at installation.

Initial cost is certainly higher, but since labor is much of the installation cost such amortizes very nicely if expected service live is 2X...

Mad Dog_2

Hi Dave........................................

I HIGHLY recommend that the company who installs is also the one who services it. We install Buderus GB Series wall-hung condensing units. They are very reliable and efficient. We have had NO problems with them. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Hi Dave........................................

I HIGHLY recommend that the company who installs is also the one who services it. We install Buderus GB Series wall-hung condensing units. They are very reliable and efficient. We have had NO problems with them. I'm trying to post a few pics of the GB in action, but they site is not accepting them right now...try later. Mad Dog

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D107

how's mod/con longevity in europe?

8-12 yrs seems very short to me. But perhaps some with good care could last 15? I'm surprised that longevity was an issue early on since I thought they've been using them in Europe for quite a long time. Wouldn't they have gotten the kinks out over there?

David

Arthur

Will they last thats the thing?

Problem is that they are full of electronics, And with some Lennox uints here in NZ we have problems getting parts, I had to wait 3 weeks for a combustion fan for one recently. It depends on whether you want to spend the extra doss now for a hi efficency boiler which has a lower running cost or buy as conventional boler lower efficency but will see you out the door in a box,
There is no free lunch what you save on fuel may be spent on spare parts in a few years time,
Recently had to exchange a hi efficncy Vulcan furnace 12 yrs old heat exchanger burnt out, Normally these last 25 yrs owner paid an extra $1200 for a hi efficncy unit to save approx $100 yr on gas.
Tell me if that makes sense.
How do you know whether you can still get a electronic circuit board after 10-15 yrs??? Probably obsolete by then.
Guess it's a bit of a gamble.

Jed_2

Simple, but pro-active, answer

to that is to have the foresight to buy a couple boards now for future need.

jed

Mad Dog_2

As long as you do the yearly maintenance on The Buderus

I don't see any reason they can't go 20-25 years. The HX ain't goona rot. What's gonna go? Igniters and modules???? What else is new? Standard elec ignition boilers have the same problems over time. I am very skepticla and cynical by nature. Buderus has made me a believer in the product. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

OK Dave here are some pics of The Buderus GB 142

See my original post. Mad Dog

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Brian

Longevity

The Buderus heat exchanger has been proven in Europe ,million plus.Because of this they back it with a 25 year warranty as opposed to the Vito's 8 year warranty.I've got 14 GB's in service with no problems.I'm with Mad Dog.Go Buderus!!!

Good Luck
Dobber

Arthur

Yer

I had a problem about 3 yrs ago with a Pensottii wall hung (2 yrs old) while admittly not one of the hi efficency ones just a nat draft one, The 4 position switch gave trouble, we couldn't get another one, I finally pulled it pieces on my kitchen table and some how managed to find the problem, and fix it, The boiler was out of commission for over a week,
Then we have the lennox's all the GM24's we are having to fix by putting in a later GM29 ECG-3ACE board, Then there is the combustion fans which because they are made of anodised steel instead of Stainless steel rot out.
Had a problem with a wall convector heater (8 yrs old)a while ago. Control box failed couldn't get another finally had to butcher another box to do the job. With a boiler and all built in outside temperature compensation all in the one module what happens 10 yrs down the track when no parts are available.
The ignitors and flame probes are the least of the problems.
To day is the day of the disposable society, Nothing lasts like they used to, But the question is does the consumer save by this, What you save on fuel is spent on replacing after a few years, penny wise pound foolish,

Constantin

Length of warranty?

... that would be the least indicative metric I would use to determine the potential longevity of a product.

A warranty is nice, but many are written such that warranty labor is not covered after a few years, materials are pro-rated, etc. I'm not saying that this is the case for the Buderus product, but I have seen such weasel-speak every time I've actually reviewed a warranty.

To me, the best warranty is the warranty you never have to use. Match the product that best fits an application and it should give you many years of trouble-free use. For example,

• When retrofitting into older systems, it makes a lot of sense to flush, passivate, and use strainers so that flakes don't obstruct the HX.
  
• In areas with bad water, it makes a lot of sense to bring in good water and install a feeder system instead of tying the hydronic into the fresh water system.
  
• Boilers with electronic conrols typically benefit from a UPS/surge protector
  
• High performance boilers demand annual servicing, and high-quality installers. There is less room for error than with the iron beasts of yesteryear.
  
• etc.

Glen

latest boiler -

being built in Vancouver, B.C. is worth a look too. Top quality with superb electronics (yes better than V or . IMO. IBC boilers. With their own line of indirects too.
www.ibcboiler.com

Joe@buderus_2

GB142 Info

The GB142 has been used in Europe for the last 20 years. The current block design has been in use for about 16 years. Proper installation, maintenance and water quality can greatly effect the life of the block. The warranty on the block is full replacement first ten years, then pro-rated up to the 15th year. We have over 7000 thousand units sold to date and are committed to offering this product and replacement parts for years to come.

Supply House Rick

A view from the other side of the counter

Buderus has been a tremendous addition to our company. We have hundreds upon hundreds of Buderus Boilers in the field with little or NO problems. Especially from the GB142. Their technical staff top shelf. In my opinion a the duration of WARRANTY is very important, just ask the guy who's equipment failed a day after his was up...

Rick

Mad Dog_2

Are their ANY in the field yet?

and if so how long. Can't really claim something is superior until it gets out on the racetrack awhile. Vitodens and GB have been out there a few years now...Mad Dog

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S Ebels

The best warranty

The best warranty is the one you never need. I've sold junk that had what looked like an outstanding warranty on paper and top quality stuff that had a warranty which looked pale in comparison. Guess which product I'd take?

In my hardware store days we sold a ton of chainsaws in the energy crunch of the late 70's early 80's. The US manufacturers (McCulloch and Homelite) had 2 year warranties on their product and we sold a Swedish made saw (Husqvarna) that had a 30 day, that's right THIRTY DAY warranty. A few people balked at the short warranty but after using the saws came to understand what I was talking about.

Today 25-30 years later the US manufacturers are pretty much out of the picture and Husqvarna is the largest in the world. My brothers have the first Husqvarna I sold in 1976 on display in the store. The guy I sold it to used it for 22 years @ 15-20 cords of firewood/yr before trading it in. It still runs great and they will sell 500+ Husqvarna saws this year as they have for the past 10 or so. They no longer sell any American made chain saws.
This is just an analogy and you can't compare a chain saw to a boiler but the same principles held by the manufacturers of each product still apply.


Length of warranty would be far down on my list as far as judging product quality. Maybe not even on the list.

Supply House Rick

Maybe not to a contractor

With all due respect.

To the homeowner, warranty is very important. I see it every day. Don't you warranty parts and labor for a year? Why not just give them the 30 day warranty? I can hear the customer's jaw drop from here...

Rick

hr

What part of a mod con do you expect

to wear out that would render it usless? Looks like every componont is small, relative to a cast boiler, and easily replace-able.

I suspect very soon aftermarket manufactures will offer blower motors, gas valves, control modules, etc. Just as they did when spark and HSI became popular in the FA market.

This pretty much leaves the actual HX as the biggest unknown as far as replacement.

From what we hear these mod con blocks or HXers have been around in various parts of Europe for 10 to 15, some 20 years. So parts should be available as long as the manufacture stays around.

I predict water quality will be the biggest factor, then wear to the outside of the HX caused by proper combustion adjustments and quality of fuel consumed, along with combustion air quality. May need HEPA intake air filters in some dirty air enviroments, or So Cal

Seems cars and trucks obsolete in about 5- 7 years these days, unless you shop the scrap yards for OEM repair parts

hot rod

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Mad Dog_2

I'm with HR here..............................................

Easy swap outs....all around. Mad Dog

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S Ebels

Color me skeptical

Most of the tube type HX's in mod/con boilers are pretty thin material which allows a LOT less margin for error/lack of maintenance.......call it what you will. In Euro land where the boiler police inspect your heating plant every year or so, stuff gets maintained. If it's not they take it out. It makes people over there take their maint and repair a tad more seriously than 99% of the people here. Under those conditions........the thinner material Hx's will probably provide decent service life. Not the same as a chunk of iron but decent enough to pay back the extra investment in a M/C boiler. I think that given the propensity of most Amercan HO's to ignore heating system maint until they have no heat, many of them will experience HX failure much sooner than they think. There's just much less margin for error and neglect than with the boilers people are used to. So........I have a gut feeling, and I could easily be wrong, that design life will not be attained in many cases.

Another area where M/C's are more vulnerable is in the electronic control area. We've repaired more than a couple that succumbed to stray voltage and overcurrent and the parts aren't very cheap. We not only have electronic water temp control devices but also electronically operated burners, draft motors and circs. Those things never broke on older style boilers because they weren't there in the first place.

Don't get me wrong and assume that I am against recommending M/C equipment. I think it's the only way to go. The homeowners MUST however realize that they can't ignore regular maintenance and repair on these little jewels. If they do, it's at their own peril.

S Ebels

Sad but true SH RIck..

US manufacturers know that Joe homeowner consideres length of warranty to be a yardstick of product quality. Nothing could be further from the truth in reality. A long warranty is just bait to get the HO to pay more for a product.

I'll give you a case and point illustration.

I remember a discussion with the Factory guys from State industries regarding longer water heater tank warranties. This was at the hardware show in Indianapolis about mid 80's when they really started to push longer tank warranties going from 5 year to 8, 12 and even one with a lifetime IIRC. The factory tech guy at the booth told me that there wasn't one iota of difference in the tank of a 5 year model as opposed to their 12 year at the time. I said, "your kidding right"? He said "no sir, that's a fact" in his Southern drawl. I'll never forget it. At the time the difference in my cost of a 5 year tank to a 12 year tank was close to $100. AND THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE TANK! They simply padded their margin to pay for the anticipated in warranty failures plus some additional profit to make it worth their while.

So, did I try to upsell to the longer warranty? I didn't even order any. The sales guys told me I was missing the boat every time I ordered a truck full. I just couldn't look someone in the eye and tell them the higher cost water heater was worth it.

So you can call me not only skeptical but also old fashioned I guess. Maybe even a fuddy duddy:)

S Ebels

A PS to the above post

Read the paragraph regarding low mass heat exchangers in the Testo combustion guide that Jim Bergman posted under the topic titled "digital combustion analyzers".

You have to download the combustion guide (pdf) that Jim has so graciously shared. It's toward the end of the document IIRC. Evidently, I'm not the only person thinking along these lines.

larry

Length of warranty is a comfort thing from a homeowners point of view and manufacturers know it. For a manufacturer it can be a way of overcoming the perception of prior bad acts or competing with those who have more stellar reputations for quality. Long warranties also make for good advertising copy (although the reality of the warranty may have much less value in practice). The automotive world have lots of examples of this.