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Has anyone installed the Roth Radiant Panel product?

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hot_rod
hot_rod Member Posts: 22,151
job that I may try this on. It will go over a 3/4 wood subfloor.

Glue, screw, or both? How well does the tube stay in the grooves? PAP?

What about cutting the stuff?

Any issues with nail down hardwood? This will be plank, not T&G flooring. We plan on painting it black to hide the inevitable gaps with the plank flooring.

Contractor and customer are aware of gap issues with wide board, non T&G flooring.

hot rod
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream

Comments

  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
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    Hot Rod...

    There is a site in England where they have been selling a similar product for quite a while...it seemed to evolve out of a need to cover stone floors....
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    Been selling for years

    HR:

    The tube will defintely stay in the panels, it requires a bit of elbow grease to get it in, however the foam returns are a different story. They have a tendency to want to pop out depending on how the coil is positioned when laying it the panels.

    Alot of contractors will screw a strap across on the returns to keep the tube in. See attachment pics.

    I'm not sure I would use this in the application you are describing. Conventional staples, while they will penetrate the product easily, are too short when used with 3/4" wood. If you go to their facility for a class, they will tell you to use 2" staples. Trying to find them is another story.

    We typically will use this product on un-insulated slabs because of the foam R-value. If wood is being called for, would consider sleepers to nail to.

    They ship in boxes that cover 96sqft. Returns are sold as a seperate item. We have broken open cartons to sell individual panels at a premium though. The product comes as 3/4" thick using 3/8" pex or 1" thick with 1/2" pex. If you use the 3/4 product, you can easily fill in some spots using some 3/4 plywood.

    I would use both a PL foam adhesive and drywall screws but place the panels between sleepers for nailing.

    Did you think about either climate panel / Qwik Trak, or even just routing out a 2nd layer of 3/4" plywood. Why are you choosing Roth for this type of installation ??

    The last 2 pics are of a 2nd layer of plywood, routed out, with aluminum tranfer plates. Works great, puts the heat closer to the surface so you can run lower temps in the loops.
  • Josh_10
    Josh_10 Member Posts: 787
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    I used it a few years back. Layout wasn't easy, but it's a great product. Really good heat transfer. Tube stays in track very well and you don't have to pound it in or use a roller.

    As for PAP I don't think it's necessary unless you want it. We didn't note any expansion/contraction noises with standard tube and silicone.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,151
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    why the plywood sleepers

    in some rooms and not others? This job will have all 3/$" walnut and cherry 6-8" wide, non T&G screwes down thru the panels.

    I did plan on screws with my Superdrive auto feed tool 1-3/4 length.

    My biggest concern is the FA floor registers to work around.

    I've done plenty of extruded and flashing plate systems. Thought I would break away from handling wood for a change.

    And the additional R-value over the unheated crawl can't hurt.

    I suspect the wood floor will have a softer feel over foam? Similar to cork flooring.

    I'm not a big fan of that small diameter tube used in the Climate panel system. Loop length and high head circs go against my better judgement.

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    All valid points

    The sleepers in the photos are 1x3 fir I think, not plywood on a concrete floor. The other pic was of a 2nd floor bedroom with no insulation below. We used the Roth panels to try and give some insulation value to the floor. He had carpet going over the panels.

    Agree with your comment about the softer floor, most people tend to want to avoid this. I would also, thats why I suggested the sleepers. It would prevent any flexing and potential noise if the aluminum should it separate from the foam due to excessive flexing.

    In the slab photo, the 2 x 4 panels were cut down to 1 x4 . The GC did not feel comfortable nailing across a 2ft span. He used an aluminum siding blade to cut the panels.

    I agree with your comment about the 5/16 pex with restrictions on loop lengths and increased head loss. We used the software provided by either Wirsbo or Viega to do our heatloss calculations. I will calculate the head losses and you can change values and play out what if scenarios. I try to keep the head in the radiant circuit to 4ft or less - usually end up with a loop length of 180 -230ft. I like using everyday pumps where possible.


  • Unknown
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    interesting, i have heard others comment about the 2' strapping spacing as well. Seems like having to cut the panels down like that removes some of the labor saving benefit, but hey.. what can you do. those are some really nice pics, by the way, thanks for sharing.

    For unstrapped areas, have you gotten any "soft floor" comments back in installed systems? It's been my concern in general with this product, but others who have installed tell me I'm being a nervous nelly.

    Roth panel should, by the way, beat the pants off of climatepanel/quik trak in terms of performance. Much thicker aluminum, closer to the floor surface. I'd use thinslab numbers to estimate performance until these yahoos get their product rated for output heh..
  • Brian_19
    Brian_19 Member Posts: 115
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    Roth panel

    I used Roth Panel last summer and it worked great. I though installation went very well, however I did have to cut around floor registers and cold air returns. The finished floor was all tile and the floor is very stable.
    In my own home I am cuurently working on I used Rehau Raupanel. The reason for this is I think it is much easier to install the hardwood flooring. The Roth Panel is a quicker install but both work very well.
    Brian
  • Michael_6
    Michael_6 Member Posts: 50
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    raupanel

    why would you not use Raupanel it will give you much better output at lower water temps.
  • Unknown
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    Check the pricing Michael, raupanel is the single most expensive possible radiant installation around. Roth is about 1/3rd of the price, for what should prove to be a SIMILIAR if slightly inferior output.
  • Michael_6
    Michael_6 Member Posts: 50
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    NRT don't need to check pricing it is all we install. water temps are by far the lowest and you are paying for the aluminum which is they key to the heat transfer.

    When the difference is shown to our customers the cost is always negligable.
  • Unknown
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    Really, four bucks a square foot is negligable?

    Don't get me wrong, I love raupanel and I spec it. But I disagree with "by far" the lowest. Warmboard and Roth will also achieve quite low water temperatures, low enough that you can't really get "by far" lower. You can get lower.. but not THAT much. and I"m pretty anal about low temperature heating.

  • Tim Gardner
    Tim Gardner Member Posts: 183
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    Nice aluminum plates

    Did you make those aluminum transfer plates in the last two pictures? If not, who makes them?

    Thanks,
    Tim
  • Josh_10
    Josh_10 Member Posts: 787
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    I agree 100% Rob. We install Rehau products exclusively but I can't justify the price of Raupanel. We use Warmboard for panel products.

    You can't tell me that gaining 2-5 degrees lower in water temp can give you a 10 year or better payback in efficiency.

    Not to mention you almost NEVER have any noise with Warmboard when used with PAP, but you almost always have some expansion and contraction noise with Raupanel no matter how you slice the cake.

    Also how about the extra $3 per square to install Raupanel? If you can do 600 sq feet a day your lucky.
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    Plates - Embassy

    Tim

    We buy these plates from Embassy industries. They are very competitive and the plates really grip the pex firmly.

    There are some other mfgs out there whose plates are loose fitting (see last pic). I don't understand how they expect them to work efficiently.

    I also include a pic of how not to install these plates with pex, and pic of a loose plate I saw on a job supplied by a competitor.
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