Lochinvar Knight service bulliten

Mark Hunt

Wilo is listening.

I have seen them. They are here.

Sooner rather than later.

Mark H

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Steve Ebels_3

Saw a product update today on Loch Knights

A rep showed me an update from Lochinvar stating that all the Knights from the 80 to the 285 will now be coming with a 26-99 as the primary circ. Evidently they've been seeing too much temp rise with the 15-58's.

Some questions he didn't have answers for:

What about the boilers already out in the field with the 15-58?

Is the 26-99 included going to be the 3 speed model?

Does anyone here have more info on this?

hot_rod

possibly due to

the amount of pressure drop added downstream of the boiler. Most of mine connect directly to a LLH with all but zip for additional pressure drop.

Glycol would be another concern.

The Lochinvar module will read out the S&R temperatures and indicate delta t under operating conditions.

Thanks for the heads up.

Now what about those delta P circs! Talk about an ideal application. The lowest possible energy consumption and a guaranteed delta t could be programed into the circ.

What a win win. Anybody from Wilo listening

hot rod

hot_rod

Imagine flowing a high head

heat exchanger with a 40 maybe 60 watt circ instead of a 150 watt 26-99. And being able to maximize the delta t for highest exchanger efficiency!

hot rod

[Deleted User]

Trust me...

they're listening, and reading...

ME

Kal Row

i wish it stopped at 150watts..

i have 4 500's LLH'ing into a 4inch Caleffi - and i had to switch from 0012's to PL-55's

one of the very new tech's told me that they had some problems with the high limits on those - some tripping as low as 188 a very easy reach - if the return water is 170, as it could very well have been, just before the indirect’s aquastat cuts it off

Sometimes a newbie tech is great, as they divulge all sorts of secrets, and you can tell that he was new, cause he said that the boiler wasn’t designed for high temp loads – wrong of course, cause any boiler designed to do IDHW is designed for high temp loads, it’s just not that efficient at that temp

by my calcs a pair of knight 285’s feeding a pair PhaseIII indirects is more efficient than a pair of rinnai tankless for DHW – such a system also costs 5 times as much, so you couldn’t justify it unless you were doing space heating as well

at my 4x500’s job, where I am feeding a pair turbomax 119’s, I had 3 showers going steady, yet only one boiler was going and was holding 179f at 50% firing rate – that’s 50,000 btu less than three steady showers should be taking (my ballpark is 100,000 per shower, more in the winter less in the summer)

Kal Row

as long as we are dreaming..

maybe someday the knights will put out 0-10vdc for vfd motors - look at http://www.pump-zone.com/articles/366.pdf i use a vfd on a large school job and the 6amp 3ph 3hp motor draws only 2 amps at 60% which is where it's at most of the tme - i used an inexpensive ($470) ge-mini from grainger - it's quiet and nice

[Deleted User]

Kal...

What are you using to control the speed controller, delta P or delta T and what are you using for transducer if it is delta P?

ME

Kal Row

straight forward delta-T...

i want to add delta-P on the 5 and 7 hp system pumps - we have Caleffi zone bypass valves on each radiator but i can still use a pressure transducer to vari the speed - looking for the right transducer, but I really have to make sure that i dont mess up controller’s PID loops, and drive it nuts – I could very well end up with computers fighting each other - I may wait with this stage until I can get their new multi-modulating controller – as then, I would be able to drive it all with the modulating outputs – I might simply use the mod output to drive the 0-10 on the Tekmar 268 stager, the injection, and the system pump, so I am modulating to the controller demand output only – should be a lot more stable that way, but it will have to wait though, as I am knee deep in automating the AC part of that school


link to the article siggi did on this system
http://www.esmagazine.com/CDA/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000062748

i you are gung ho on VFD’s, HBX controlls is going to be doing a lot of things with VFD’s – contact jerry katz at wallce-ennace in LI for more info – and I am still waiting for my supply house to bring in the wilo ecm –I am always on the bleeding edege – it hard to get the stuff – been wanting to install a noradyne 23 seer ac unit since the sarted advertising it a year ago under the tappan, frigidare, maytag, and Gibson labels, still no joy, that ac is using the Panasonic IQ system, with the compressor, and condenser and evaporator fans all VFD’d as well as a stepper motor on the expansion valve – that with r410 gets them to 23seer – nice!

[Deleted User]

SIggy mentioned you...

and your exhuberant partner when I met him in Canada. He had nothing but good to say about the two of you. Sounds like you guys are pushing the envelope. Keep it up. It's people like you who start major changes.

I'll try and look up the Kele pressure transducer part number we used on a 5 HP 3 phase pump motor on a district heating system with a Honeywell VFD. Ran the motor at idle most of the time...

Awesome to watch them work. I considered going delta T, but the system was 3 city blocks long, and was piped direct return, and I was afraind of shorting the other end flow at critical times. How do you over come this potential problem? Tight delta T, or temporary override?

Thanks for the response.

ME

Kal Row

you would need to take both...

Measurements through a balanced electrical bridge to combine both readings for flow and temp protection – or bias the VFD for some minimum as I do, so that my freeze or purge protection demands work with out waking up the whole system

Larry (from OSHA)

Temp rise applications

I see in the new charts that for a 35 degree application a 15-58FC is still OK.

Please help me understand what determines which specs to use.

It's boiler replacement season at my house and I thought I had this figured out. The prospect of a fairly high wattage circ. doesn't thrill me too much.

Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this for me.

Larry

Kal Row

for radiant only loads...

where the return temps are 90-120 - then the slow flow - high temp rise gets the most heat out of the flue gas, but for an indirect hot water load with a low loss header in between, when there is almost no resistance in the primary circuit and the return temps could very well be 170 or more before the aquastat stops calling, then you need higher flow – and lower rise temps, so that the boiler doesn’t overshoot, or worse, flash into steam at hotspots in the heat exchanger, that’s the primary concern – so a hi-flow/hi-head pump keeps temps even across the HX and the high head keeps it from flashing – as the low mass thin metal welded heat exchangers are not going to take flashing much – like a hunk of cast iron would – it’s not a bad idea to put a “clamp on” aquastat to limit the return temp to 165 – especially in a multiple boiler system, that has a central sensor based “stager” or “modulator”, and might be a little slow to get the message – that “hey: enough already!!!” – this “head” requirement is also why all low mass boilers need to be “pumped into” – and the only way to satisfy the “pump away” concept and the “pump into” concept at the same time, is to have a primary and secondary with the “point of zero pressure change” on the secondary to that ALL pumps are effectively “pumping away”

Larry (from OSHA)

hi temp system with indirect

Kal, thanks for your input.

My 3 zones of fin baseboard obviously are designed for high temps but with the ODR currently in place, high temps are not seen all that much. The indirect tank is another story. The BW double wall "engineering sample" tank that I have been using/testing for the last couple of years has a very low pressure drop HX, but due to the double steel on steel coil, the delta t is only 12 degrees at best and about 5 degrees when close to being satisfied. The pressure drop is about 1 psig at 10 gpm. I have been told that the coil can give up about 50k btuh. The current circ for the indirect is a 15-58 on speed 2. If the boiler pump needs to be a 26-99, does that mean I need to change the indirect circ as well? I have had my mind set on the Knight for a while, but this is getting very interesting.

Any perspectives and experiences are very welcome.

Larry

Dave_4

You will need to keep the flow and head up..

on the boiler and if your indirect cant take the flow – then you need to inject from the boiler’s dhw loop to the indirect’s loop – be sure to use the “offset” feature of the knight, and set it for a minimum of 10, with the setpoint at 170, so that the fire throttles way back after it hit’s 170 and heats to 180 slowly

Ps: Fin-tub baseboard is heating air to heat people – a bad deal – put in cast iron radiators – to heat the people directly with infrared light and pipe them in with pex – so unless you are on a really tight budget – go for the cast

Larry (from OSHA)

going with the flow

but not quite following you Kal with regards to "if your indirect cant take the flow – then you need to inject from the boiler’s dhw loop to the indirect’s loop"

The plan is to pipe it exactly as in the i&o manual (see attachment)

As far as the fin tube, I'd love to do panel rads or some such thing, but the wife thinks I'm crazy enough just because I spend so much time on the Wall. (But I know I'm not the only one with that issue!!)

Larry

Moses

Cast Iron

Larry,

Here is some pictures from our jobs, that Kal was referring.

Here we installed a Larrs Mascot wall hung boiler. We piped the supply and returns from the boiler, into the system header, into close space tees, (lo-loss-header)as you see in picture 000A. Picture 00D is the suuply side of the header, with 2 zone valves. Picture 000E is the return side of the header.

Moses

Kal Row

the HO's love this system, because...

not only is there almost no boiler room, but after they painted everything including the radiators, the radiators all but disappear as they are practically flush with the wall (with reflective insulation behind them of course) and they radiate really well, Moses only showed a small one, but the apt’s have wide windows and the radiators fill the entire window width for symmetry , even throttled down because of the oversize it’s still a really good panel radiator – that’s the beauty of these – (I wish I could get a finished pic of them )

try this little experiment – on a cold day, set a cast iron radiator to 80f, touch it, it will feel cool to the touch, move you hand off it just a bit and it will feel warm – that’s RAY-D-ANT – and it can respond to weather changes in 15 minutes!!!

– I never let someone with a good steam system touch it!!! It’s radiant also – had a lady complain about her cold bedroom in steam house, as soon as we moved the tv cart away from the front of it, she was fine!!!

Kal Row

larry re: indirects cant take the flow..

if you put a high flow pump on an indirect that has hi resistance - you wont get enough through the indirect to work and enough through the boiler to keep it from flashing, so you run a pipe loop to/from the indirect with it's recommended pump, and close-T the boiler's DHW loop into it with it's recommended pump, problem is with that setup is a very low delta-T across the boiler as there is no way for the indirect to move the heat from the boiler to that tank – that’s why I use PHASE-III’s or Turbomax’s lots of flow and lots of surface area – so I get high flows – yet high delta-t’s – the least expensive way to buy a phase-III is under the Williamson label