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under slab insulation radiant/snowmelt

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Glenn Sossin_2
Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
read the other post on snowmelt. It addresses your question with alot of detail.

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  • Bigheadtodd_2
    Bigheadtodd_2 Member Posts: 12
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    under slab insulation radiant/snowmelt

    Who is making the best under slab insulation? We have used the bubbel product before, but from what I can find out this is not the way to go anymore.
    Insultarp and the Barrier look good. Would prefer not to use ridgid foam. Were can I get the best information on this subject?

    Thanks for the help Todd
  • Bigheadtodd_2
    Bigheadtodd_2 Member Posts: 12
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    under slab insulation radiant/snowmelt

    Who is making the best under slab insulation? We have used the bubbel product before, but from what I can find out this is not the way to go anymore.
    Insultarp and the Barrier look good. Would prefer not to use ridgid foam. Were can I get the best information on this subject?

    Thanks for the help Todd
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    At least one radiant

    company advises against under slab snowmelt insulation. Something to do with slab failure liability.

    Although I'm not sure how it differs from inside slab failures? Not many driveways see 18 wheeler traffic and loads like shops do.

    Personally The flexible 3/4" rolls looks like a good compromise. Snowmelts aren't known for fuel efficiency.

    I agree with sheets being very hard to work, especially on steep drives which is about the only drives that even consider snowmelt in my area.

    A compromise might be 3/4" below but beef up the edge. If you can find a good edge insulation protection product.

    Speaking of which... this sample of insulated "leave in place" form board/ edge insulation looks like a good product for slab on grade and driveway edge detail.

    Also the edge protecter plastic for metal building details.
    www.energyedgeform.com

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Radiant Wizard
    Radiant Wizard Member Posts: 159
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    R-Foil by COver Tech

    Ultra Barrier Foil CT3049 is the best buy far and belive it or not has a lifetime warrant in underslab insulations. 500 sqft to a roll but it costs a little more than the others. I sell it for about $300.00 a roll...Been using it for years. I could get into R-Values but that proably would start a another thread.
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    Neat idea

    HR

    Very interested in this product. Is this put in after the pour? Can you provide the manufacturer name and contact info?

    Thanks

    Glenn
  • [Deleted User]
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    Seriously...

    How will one know when his below slab insulation has "failed"? Does one leave an "inspection viewing port" in the slab so one can check up on his insulation on a regular basis? No offense wiz, but some of the companies marketing schemes are getting to be a bit too much..

    Todd, I did some insitu research on the different insulations. I wrote an article on it at http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=560

    andhttp://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=571

    How's life in the hills?

    ME
  • [Deleted User]
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    HR...

    Who might that be?

    25 PSI insulation was used below the truck dock at the Target Store we did in the mountains. I was concerned about crush resistance and ran it by their M.E., he sat down with a calcualtor and told me the insulation had a higher crush resistance than the soil below it and not to worry. I've been keeping an eye on the slab, and this slab sees a LOT of 18 wheeler traffic, and everything is fine.

    The Germans think were out of our friggin minds for even considering using snowmelt in non critical situations. "You'd be in jail here for doing something that blatant"...

    Maybe us Americans ARE wasteful ;-(

    ME
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    sensors

    Mark

    I was just thinking of doing what you did on a much smaller scale this mornining. I have a relatively small driveway, approx 20 x 30 that I will be putting snow melt in later this summer. I was thinking of taking a small portion maybe 2 x 20 and dividing into 4 different types of insulation product. I was also thinking of burying sensors a different depth intervals, right under the slab, 2" down, and 4" down.

    Seeing as you did all this work, could you provide a link or copy of the temperature results you got? I read your article, could you provide other links to the other articles?

    Thank you
    Glen
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    I sensored this slab

    in front of my shop. One sensor right under the insulation both 1" foam and InsulTarp. Then at 6" and 12" below. I've been too cheap to run the slab to do any testing, however. Maybe this winter when I can solar and wood fire it.

    I believe the NAIT campus in Edmonton sensored and dataloged their outside slabs.

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    www.energyedgeform.com

    Casey Barbour is my contact. An architect I believe.

    Here is another pattern they offer.

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    Yellow ring

    015S whats that yellow ring is that a wire tie? Love the the way you fastened the plates for sensor. I will do the same in my driveway
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    Canada

    HR
    When I spoke with Wally of North Eastern Ohio Foam, I asked him why they made the 3/4" rolls of barrier. They were made to meet the minimum composite underslab R-values required in Canada.

    Wonder why we don't have similar laws here.

    Thanks for the info on the edgeform. I will be contacting them later today. I have another large snowmelt we are about to start and will consider specifying this.

    Glenn
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    ClipTie tool

    from Watts radiant.

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Unknown
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    there is no need for another thread.

    If it has, or says "foil" in the name, it is a complete waste of money under a slab as insulation.

    Period, end of story. Come join us in the 21st century.. that foil under slab junk was debunked already. Do your clients a favor and stop selling it.
  • Greg_40
    Greg_40 Member Posts: 43
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    I second NRT Bob's statement. For foil to work as a radiant reflective surface, there must be a gap. Since below slabs have no gap, the heating going there is conductive, so foils have no effect. The bubbles do all the insulating in below slab applications, foil has no effect at all. The insulation value is about R-1. M.E. has done a lot of practical in the field research on the issue. If it worked, we'd all use it. Someone has done an incredible job of marketing a useless idea into the public mind and it is almost impossible to set many people stratight on issues like this one.
  • Greg_40
    Greg_40 Member Posts: 43
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    Glenn, they have three products. Two are put in prior to the pour. Their brackets- the black angled item in one shot is to fasten to footings or stem walls and acts as a rebar support. The newer product, without EPS insulation core can be put on after pour and it's job is only to protect the insulation from the elements.
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