condensoin boiler

rich_42

new home full raidant heat, basement,garage, 1 floor 2 floor &attic. in extruded allumium 3/8 pex between joist .basement &garage 1/2 pex in 4"concrete r -15 walls attic r-30 in ceiling cathedral. 4000 sq. ft.approx. sq. ft. looking at weil mclain ultra net ibr 155000or net ibr 123 000 or munchkin any recommdations on without breaking the bank on condensing boilers zurn components

Brad White_9

Thoughts

1) You need to size the boiler to the calculated heat loss. What you are indicating is a wide range and may well exceed your heat load in either case (depending on many variables). What is that real number?

2) The model you choose will depend on the installer more than any other single factor. The best boiler can be an expensive boat anchor in the wrong hands. An "OK" boiler will be the best it can be in the right hands. Who services you best, who will stand by and behind the unit should something go wobbly, that is what you need to know.

3) Viessmann Vitodens is the highest quality I can think of, with Triangle Tube Prestige Solo, Lochinvar Knight, Buderus GB-142, W-M Ultra, all good among others.

4) No way to advise you about breaking the bank. No one but you can know that. If you want quality, you have to pay for it. That is the Inviolable Rule of the Universe.

Robert O'Brien

What's

the heat loss?In relation to the cost of the home the price difference between a Vitodens and any other boiler is no more than 1/2 of 1% of the cost of construction. It's not worth .5% or less of the cost of that home to have the highest quality boiler made?

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John_102

Brad's 4th point

That's called the FIRST law of thermodynamics....

ALH_4

Boilers

I would wager that, once you perform a heat loss calculation, you will find that a Vitodens 6-24 will handle the load.

It sounds like you are installing a top-notch system with Thermofin or Thinfin, so it makes sense to install a top-notch boiler like the Vitodens. Be careful of the indirect water heater sizing. A 4000sf home likely has a few bathrooms. Make sure you will have enough hot water volume to fill any large tubs or handle higher flow showers.

If the Vitodens 200 is absolutely not in the budget, inquire about the Vitodens 100 that should be available very soon.

Glenn Sossin_2

Vitodens

Andrew

Just curious - why are you so strong on the vitodens ? Not trying to pass any judgement because my only exposure is through the literature and manuals.

Definetly do not put the Weil McClain in the same category as Vitodens or the Prestige.

ALH_4

Vitodens

One reason I talk about the Vitodens a lot is because I used to sell, support, and design systems with Viessmann boilers, and I was very impressed with them. That is not to say there are not other high quality condensing boilers. I like the Prestige design a lot, but I have not had the privelege of working with them, though I have read through the installation manuals. Word on The Wall is the Prestige is an excellent boiler.

Another reason I recommend the Vitodens 6-24 in this situation is because I believe a heat loss calculation will indicate that a Solo 110 is larger than needed. Though, it may turn out that an 8/32 or Solo 110 would be the correct size.

The third reason I recommend the Vitodens is that it sounds like this is a very nice install in a relatively large home with Thermofin floors. It seems like a Vitodens boiler would be appropriate.

I too am wary of aluminum boilers, for galvanic corrosion issues as well as pH issues with the condensate. I think some are well built, but they are still aluminum.

Robert O'Brien

Glenn

You really have to see and handle the Vitodens to appreciate it's superiority and given the price it should be superior.The same with the Vitocell 300,it's a lot of money for an indirect until you see what you're getting.The materials and construction put it in a class by itself

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Glenn Sossin_2

Foreign Quality undisputed

I have no doubt the unit is assembled, machined, to higher standard than American products, just like Buderus. I'm sure it is like you say, a well engineered piece of quality equiptment.

I have expressed an interest in Viesmann to our local rep, but due to other outside political issues, the thumb is being put on us - time may change things. Unless I believe I have a superior product to offer, I would rather sell what my customers want to purchase. This product surfaces frequently enough that I want to learn more.

Other than the comments here, I look at the literature to get information. I've noted the exchanger is basically a cylindrical coil, similar to munchkins. Because of its design, I would think it would be prone to possible air issues and increased head losses.

The grade of stainless in the heat exchanger tubes of the Presitige is 439, compared to the 316 of the Vitodens. It is my understanding the 439 is the highest grade stainless used in any mod con currently in production. The heat exchangers are different in design. The Presitige is vertical. According to Triangle Tube, the condensate drips down through the tube baffles so there is no cleaning necessary - a big difference from all the other manufacturers - especially when you look at warranty situations with respect to maintenance.

So my question would be - is the vertical self cleaning heat exchanger a better design? It would seem to be and it appears to be made out of a better grade of stainless. The efficiency numbers of the Vitodens are definetly better, so are the ones from Dunkirk. Clearly this is related to the design of all the assembled components.

Viesmann has the name and the image - no argument. I guess the end numbers make the case for a better design - regardless of the heat exchanger material.

One thing I really like about the Prestige is the parts issue. Besides the factory being local, Triangle Tube makes a little attache case with all the major components - fan motors, gas valve, sensors, logic board etc. We have several customers who install the Prestige on a regular basis and keep this case on hand. We also keep the cases in stock.

Since there is such strong postive sentiments for the Vitodens, I will look again into the potential of becoming a distributor.

S Ebels

Glenn

The Munchkin/Lochinvar HX is most definitely NOT similar to the HX in the Vitodens. For starters the wall thickness on the Vito is roughly double than the Giannoni (sp) HX used by HTP, Lochinvar and others. The design is also completely different. Where the the Munch/Loch HX is a number of individual tubes connected to a common header, the Vitodens is one continuous coil of rectangular cross section. If you looked at both side by side the first thing you would notice is that the weight of the Vitodens HX is 2-3 times what the other type is. The second thing you would see is the the "loops" on the M/L HX are rather haphazardly arranged and spacing between each loop is variable. You would notice that the coil arrangement and the spacing on the Vitodens is absolutely uniform from front to back. This precludes any hot spots in the HX.

As to condensate removal from the HX, I agree that the Prestige is a nice design and will likely stay clean as well as anything due to the gravity assist from the vertical HX. Viessmann has taken care of condensate by ensuring that ALL of it is literally blown out the gaps (.8mm) between the coils. The velocity of the air moving through that small gap is around 45 MPH and drops in temperature from roughly 1700* to about 20* above return temp in only 1 1/2" of travel.

You are correct in assuming that air removal takes better purging than most installers typically do. We always purge all our systems, Viessmann or not, with a pump that will develop high flow and about 25PSI. This helps clean the system before placing it into service also. Once done in that manner, I have had no issues with air in any hydronic system.

I've attached a couple of document from Allegheny Ludlum which describe the stainless alloys used in these two boilers. Makes for interesting reading..........at least for someone like me. OK OK..........go ahead and call me a geek

joel_19

Geek

> The Munchkin/Lochinvar HX is most definitely NOT

> similar to the HX in the Vitodens. For starters

> the wall thickness on the Vito is roughly double

> than the Giannoni (sp) HX used by HTP, Lochinvar

> and others. The design is also completely

> different. Where the the Munch/Loch HX is a

> number of individual tubes connected to a common

> header, the Vitodens is one continuous coil of

> rectangular cross section. If you looked at both

> side by side the first thing you would notice is

> that the weight of the Vitodens HX is 2-3 times

> what the other type is. The second thing you

> would see is the the "loops" on the M/L HX are

> rather haphazardly arranged and spacing between

> each loop is variable. You would notice that the

> coil arrangement and the spacing on the Vitodens

> is absolutely uniform from front to back. This

> precludes any hot spots in the HX.

>

> As to

> condensate removal from the HX, I agree that the

> Prestige is a nice design and will likely stay

> clean as well as anything due to the gravity

> assist from the vertical HX. Viessmann has taken

> care of condensate by ensuring that ALL of it is

> literally blown out the gaps (.8mm) between the

> coils. The velocity of the air moving through

> that small gap is around 45 MPH and drops in

> temperature from roughly 1700* to about 20* above

> return temp in only 1 1/2" of travel.

>

> You are

> correct in assuming that air removal takes better

> purging than most installers typically do. We

> always purge all our systems, Viessmann or not,

> with a pump that will develop high flow and about

> 25PSI. This helps clean the system before placing

> it into service also. Once done in that manner, I

> have had no issues with air in any hydronic

> system.

>

> I've attached a couple of document

> from Allegheny Ludlum which describe the

> stainless alloys used in these two boilers. Makes

> for interesting reading..........at least for

> someone like me. OK OK..........go ahead and call

> me a geek



ok your a super geek

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Glenn Sossin_2

I think I'll read them again

Thanks for the documents, I enjoy the technical reading side of things. Always want to learn. Your explanation was very well written, easy to understand, and you certainly made your case. It's a very interesting method of removing the condensate. Does this mean no exchanger cleaning to keep the warranties in effect ?

Steve Ebels_3

Warranty issues aside

I think every manufacturers manual that I have read recommends annual inspection. I don't think that lack of this voids the warranty on the Vitodens but it would surely be contrary to the maintenance prescribed in Viessmann's documents. Shame on anyone who does not take care of their heating equipment annually. It does their pocketbook, their equipment and the environment a dis-service in the long run. I better stop now......... I feel a rant coming on and I don't want to get my blood pressure up before hitting the sack