Viessmann model recommendations

Dave_4

> The size is ideal for a 50 MBH loss <BR>
> versus 67 MBH worth of radiator (sounds <BR>
> _i_really_/i_ familiar to me, those numbers <BR>
> :)<BR>

My guess is that everyone will become a bit more familiar with my system over the next week or so as more questions pop into my brain - hopefully I don't overstay my welcome :)

(I also wonder if any of the contractors I have contacted will see these posts - I have informed them all about this great resource)

Dave_4

Viessmann suggestions

Hello,
I am in the process of picking a heating contractor to swap out an 80 year old boiler with something newer along with closing an open/gravity system. Both contractors have suggested different Viessmann models for this conversion.

Some background info - I live in Toronto, the fuel is gas, I performed a heat loss calc for the coldest day of the year and it comes to be 50,000 BTU/hr. The total EDR is 445 sq.ft. or almost 67,000 BTU/hr at an avg water temp of 170F. I would like to go with an outdoor reset to allow the boiler to modulate water temp. I also want an indirect DHW tank (both have recommended the smallest size of 40gal). As well, I will be installing one/two rads in the basement to make up for the loss of the old boiler's radiation. One final thing, the wall the boiler will be installed on/next to is connected to my neighbour's driveway which means I cannot go directly out - the only solution for venting is straight out the chimney or running a vent across the basement to another wall. The chimney currently has a SS liner which has been used with the old boiler which was fueled by oil (I am also converting the fuel in this process over to gas).

One contractor has recommended the Vitogas 100 with an outdoor reset and DHW tank vented straight up the chimney. The second has recommended a Vitodens vented up the chimney as well but after a PVC pipe has been run down the chimney. Both have suggested hooking up the current thermostat directly to the circulator. The contractor who recommended the Vitodens did not like the idea of running a Vitogas 100 off an outdoor reset due to condensation issues which will eventually destroy the boiler. Niether contractor has recommended the Vitola (or knew much about it) which seems to get great reviews on this site.

What about the control? It appears from reading through the Viessmann literature that I could use a Vitotronic 200 with a mixing valve for the DHW tank or a Vitotronic 100 without a mixing valve, again with the DHW tank. What would the advantage be over one or the other? Is the added cost of the 200 worth it?

I am the type of consumer who likes to pay for good value but I do not like to waste my money. However, I do want a high quality product with great performance and reliability.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Brad White_9

If you can at all solve the venting issues

I would go with the Vitodens, no question. There is nothing quite like it. In fact, some have said in this forum that venting vertically through the roof is preferable than sidewall although sidewall venting works fine for me. There are options.

Distance limitations govern of course, so it may make as much sense to place the boiler to accomodate the venting requirements and run some piping to the starting point if need be. Sidewall venting on your opposite side may be an option for the installation of some water pipe.

The size is ideal for a 50 MBH loss versus 67 MBH worth of radiator (sounds really familiar to me, those numbers

OD Reset control is inherent and the DHW production cannot be beat.

ALH_4

Vitodens

Definitely the Vitodens. The Vitogas 100 is an excellent cast iron boiler, but it is still a cast iron boiler.

The Vitodens does not allow PVC venting. Only stainless steel or Viessmann's concentric vent material should be used. A chimney liner is not acceptable, so it would have to be lined with approved venting material.

Thermostatic radiator valves would be an excellent addition to this system.

heatboy

If you can use.......

....the chimney, the Vitola is my choice. The gas burners a wonderful and the full array of Vitotronic controls are available. More efficient than the Vitogas.

hb

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Brad White_9

To Clarify

When I said "ideal", my principal reference was your heat loss to radiator ratio. The reason it is familiar to me is that it mirrors the heat loss of my Susan's house and her radiator output also. Works like a champ and the water temperature has not gone over 122 degrees on the coldest days.

This is not to say that the Vitodens is not over-sized for the application. It is. We all wish for ModCon boilers of smaller inputs someday. But your DHW production will be rocket-fast.

ALH_4

Just wondering...

I am curious why would you would choose the Vitola over the Vitodens? Venting could be an issue for the Vitodens, but stainless steel exhaust would probably work.

To me, there do not seem to be a lot of applications for Vitolas with gas burners, particularly since the introduction of the Vitodens. The Vitola is still the best oil boiler out there. The Vitogas 100 has always been a tough sell compared to the ECD's, or even the Vitodens. They are physically large and relatively expensive. However, they are still the best amospheric gas burning boiler available. I'm not sure I see much of a place in the market for the GS-1.

Isn't the price nearly the same for a VB2, GS-1, or Vitodens once controls and piping are done?

heatboy

I am assuming..........

.......that this 80 year old home is full of CI radiation. The vitola, with it's large mass seems, to me anyway, the logical choice for this application. A simple two stage thermostat would be a great control theory here. Poor man's reset. First stage runs the pumps, second stage fires the boiler. No low limit on the Vitola. Beautiful. After it runs for a while, if the owner notices one or more radiator overheating (highly doubtful), you can add TRV the that radiator to keep from overheating. I did this in my own home and it works wonderfully. I have alsways thought, and still do, then when ALL things are considered, the Vitola is the best buy. I say that even after installing and servicing several Vitodens.

You can also add controls to the Vitola, like the 200 or 300 or Tekmar, blah, blah, blah, but you don't have to. As complicated as some guys make it out to be, it's really not rocket science.

hb

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Leo Galozo

Andrew

a little birdie has told me that Viessmann is in the process of getting their vito approved for the new PVC (I believe Ipex is the brand right now), and with that approval will come longer vent limits! And people say that now is a bad time to be alive! LOL!

Leo G

Steve Ebels_3

It'd be a toss up for me

In my book, the Vitola is a beautifully uncomplicated piece of equipment that will be here 50 years from now. Using HB's install strategy would be very simple to implement and it would be about bulletproof. I have seen the VB's running in excess of 90% on the analyzer when firing into a low temp application. Without condensation in the boiler! A Stainless liner would be mandatory in the flue of course.

The Vitodens would of course run a few percentage points higher than the Vitola. Probably not all that much though in the above described application. If condensing is desired later, I'm betting that Viessmann will have their secondary HX available at some point for addition to an existing Vitola installation.

Depends on what the customer wants. Maximum reliability and service life or a few more ticks upward on the efficiency.

heatboy

I forgot to mention...

.....with this being an open system for a long time, I would wonder how much stuff has accumulated inside of it. The Vitola will not care so much, but the Vitodens is going to be highly susceptable to the issues it may cause.

hb

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

As a couple others have suggested, I'd limit the choices between the Vitola and the Vitodens. Overall cost will likely be quite similar with the flue being the wild-card.

Fuel efficiency of the Vitodens will certainly be higher but the Vitola will [probably] last longer. ALL condensing-modulating boilers (including the Vitodens) require annual inspection/cleaning. While ALL boilers/furnaces of any sort should be inspected on at least a semi-annual basis, it's not uncommon for cast iron boilers to work for decades with no maintenance until they have a "breakdown" of some sort. The Vitola is [probably] the closest modern equivalent with regards to expected service life and low maintenance to your 80 year-old boiler.

You didn't mention domestic hot water.

If you plan on having the boiler supply domestic hot water and provided you have no need for say two simultaneous very hot showers, I would consider the Vitodens 6-24 "combi-boiler". If you're currently using a stand-alone gas fired domestic hot water heater you can expect a drastic reduction in DHW fuel costs.

Glen

Class A consumer -

"I am the type of consumer who likes to pay for good value but I do not like to waste my money. However, I do want a high quality product with great performance and reliability." Then use the Vitola - practically bulletproof for your application (open conversion) - and you can will it to your children.