Burnham VS Buderus- gas fired Cast iron Boilers

ScottMP

Please explain Buderus's "open market system" and how it differs from Any Other Company ??

As I said earler, ANYONE can install either boiler.

Scott

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andy_21

Burnham Vs. Buderus- Gas fired Cast iron boiler

Installing a new system in our renovated home. 1/2 Radiant in floor, 1/2 hydronic coils forced air. Need direct venting & Indirect hot water storage. Do either of these brands have an advantage in this type of system? Need appox 80K BTU
There is so much great info here, I should be able to get some unbiased opinions.
Thanks

Dave_4

Cast Iron Gas

Mike,
I have recently installed a couple of the Burnham SCG Direct Vents and they are great, they are now 85+% AFUE and Burnham has a nice concentric venting kit you can use with it. The SCG took the place of their old Spirit series and they did a real nice job with this boiler. I have installed a few of the GA124's and have switched to the Burnham SCG's. In my opinion they are very comparable. You may want to look at both of their Modulating Condensing Boilers, Burnham has just introduce a new wall hung that looks sweet and Buderus also has nice unit.

Supply House Rick

Apples to Oranges

Both boilers are of the highest quality when installed correctly. If not they are both expensive door stops...

*** Jim, only in Fantasy Land is there a "serious downside with Buderus" As a distributor who has sold thousands of Buderus and Burnham Boilers you are wrong. This is a world class company on All levels ***

Rick

Jim_66

one serious downside to buderus

As a homeowner (with elementary knowledge and a boiler license, for what *thats* worth since its a whole different world than installation) there is one major Buderus downside: make sure you REALLY trust your installer to do a proper job.

You are buying a relationship with the installer first, the boiler company second, and the actual boiler is really a distant third in importance.

Buderus doesn't have a factory-authorized dealer system, so if you get a sloppy install you will have zero leverage in solving the problems from the company if you strike out with the installers on the first round (in my case, the installers don't even return calls--they install and run, and have done it to many others too I've since learned).

All you have to do is compare the documentation that come with Buderus side-by-side with Burnham's. Burnham is so much more explicit and thorough, and that speaks to factory standards and expectations. Buderus basically says "local codes and standards" and can be installed by anybody.

In other words, Burnham has outstanding training and support (obvious from their website), and has formal expectations/requirements of their installers. Buderus is more of an open-market product.

If you have a mediocre install (even if from licensed installers, as mine were) buderus cannot/will not help you deal with them or solve the issues at all.

In other words, you have only one tree to bark up--and it ain't Buderus.

Clearly both Buderus and Burnham build high-quality boilers. From what I've learned (the hard way) all major boiler brands are trustworthy.

And hey,its possible to muff a Burnham install too! But I suspect that Burnham naturally weeds out installers who do consistently poor work (read: cause Burnham problems).

Anyhow--I don't blame buderus of course for my experience, but I can say they have left me hanging and I don't like that.

In short they dont see me as "the customer", but only the installers--even if (I now know) the installers are notorious.

The truth is "customership" is shared between the installer and the homeowner. I think SlantFin/Burnham (I've had good experiences with those companies in the past) get that, Buderus does not.

From what I've read/heard if problems with a burnham/slantfin/W-M etc are serious enough a factory rep will come take a look see. Not so with Buderus...

Something to ponder.

aaron_4

Buderus help.

I'm not sure were Jim lives but out here in Seattle we have excellent support and Tech support from Buderus I think it is better then Burnham in the sense that the Buderus tech will come out to the job and help with the install and the diagnosis of any problem. And they do design stuff also and are not afraid to tell the install that they are doing it wrong and showing them how to do it right. My 2 cents.

ScottMP

Jim

Neither Boiler company is responsible for a poor install.

Neither boiler company can limit who install's thier equipment.

Neither can "limit' who install's thier equipment.

BOTH companys, in My opinion have a great track record of responsive assistant.

Sorry to here of your problems But Buderus is not resposible for your poor install.

Scott



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Jim_66

Right--but youre a responsible installer...

Im sure good installers get good help from Buderus but in my case the installer wont even call Buderus. So, because of Buderus open market system the installer will keep installing Buderus sloppily without consequences.

In your case you do good work, and for that I dont doubt that Buderus knows their stuff.

Jim_66

Im not blaming buderus...

Well, I guess I didnt make my point well. Buderus is a good company making good products and I didnt mean to imply otherwise.

Thats why I specifically said in my first message that you buy a relationship the installer FIRST.

But I can say that a few years ago when I had problems with a Burnham boiler in a duplex Burnham was very very helpful to me as a homeowner in solving the problem, and they put pressure on the installer to keep working on it til it was fixed.

Buderus just cant do that because of their sales structure.

Ted_9

Buderus

Buderus has always been by my side when I needed them and have come out on jobs when I needed that too. Of course, I do my work in Massachusetts and their headquarters are in New Hampshire.

From what I hear, Burnham is great too, but I have not installed one.

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Mark Hunt

I install both


and both companies are top shelf.

Either company will respond immediately if an issue with THEIR equipment pops up.

As for inferior installs, remember this. The boiler manufacturers have NO say over who can or cannot install their boilers.

If the guy installing the boiler is no smarter than the metal the boiler is made of, well..........there ya go. Both companies offer training and both will come out in the field if there is a need. Neither can MAKE an installer do anything if the installer does not see the problem.

Jim stated that his installer would NOT call Buderus. Who has the problem? Buderus or the installer?

The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

Mark H

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Supply House Rick

Mark

Well said, well said. He must have a 700lb door stop. Look no farther than the installer. There is no axe to grind with Buderus is there? It's your installer isn't it.

We are still waiting for the "open market" explanation. Not every supplier can carry Buderus, clock's ticking...

john_83

A different look

I dont know Buderus real well but i can tell you this had a problem with a Burnham dry base boiler lets just say it involved oil and alot of it. One of the controls failed and it was'nt good. They did replace the boiler but only because i was a home heating member and they could'nt argue the problem. But as a loyal installer i expected a represenative to come out and just make a appearance well im still waiting. Second payment for the warranty work took over three years to get paid for granted i got paid and they replaced the boiler. But When you install as many boilers as we did you expect a little more. Not saying its not a good product, we installed it for 21 years but that really made me think. Needless to say we do not install burnham anymore. We switched another company that in my book has a great installer/manufactor relationship. I would have never of thought we would ever of switched.

Cunner_2

Sounds Like.......

there may be more to your story Rock, especially after using to product for 21 years. I've never known Burnham to walk away unless there was some other factors involved. How helpful was your distributor in dealing with this problem?

I once had a problem where a W/M Gold I had installed had a primary control malfunction and dumped a ton oil oil into the boiler and eventually onto the basement floor in a new house, the customer threatened to sue claiming "health" issues caused by the oil smell. Upon hearing that W/M immediately stopped any warranty proceedings and handed it over to their paralegal dept, I in turn charged the homeowner for a new boiler, never did get paid in full for that one. I don't blame Weil for not paying, as soon as the word lawsuit enters the conversation it changes everything. I have since switch my boiler select to Burnham, but not because of that incident, I just think they make a better product.

I guess you can have a bad experience with any manufacturer , I guess it's just what you make of it.......

Cunner_2

Why Blame Burnham

> I dont know Buderus real well but i can tell you

> this had a problem with a Burnham dry base boiler

> lets just say it involved oil and alot of it. One

> of the controls failed and it was'nt good. They

> did replace the boiler but only because i was a

> home heating member and they could'nt argue the

> problem. But as a loyal installer i expected a

> represenative to come out and just make a

> appearance well im still waiting. Second payment

> for the warranty work took over three years to

> get paid for granted i got paid and they replaced

> the boiler. But When you install as many boilers

> as we did you expect a little more. Not saying

> its not a good product, we installed it for 21

> years but that really made me think. Needless to

> say we do not install burnham anymore. We

> switched another company that in my book has a

> great installer/manufactor relationship. I would

> have never of thought we would ever of switched.

Cunner_2

Why Blame Burnham?

Why blame Burnham?
Sounds like they went above and beyond by replacing a boiler when it was just a control that was possibly bad. Would you expect the current manufacturer you use to supply a boiler and pay labor every time a control failed? If the boiler leaks I hold the manufacturer responsible, if a control fails I give them a little slack...... Stuff Happens

Joe@buderus_2

Buderus Support

Buderus provides support over the phone and will do a site visit if so requested by the technician (original installer or other called in after the fact) if it is determined that the issue cannot be resolved over the telephone. The GB142 comes with an Applications Manual that has many piping diagrams to provide "basic" installation information. We use this manual as a referance guide to help any technician determine if piping is an issue. Please e-mail me the information and details regarding your installation to see if I can assist. Burnham and Buderus both have respectable products and pride in the technical suppport we offer. Glenn Stanton of Burnham is highly respected by many in the industry (including myself). As you stated, the installer is just as important as the product.

ScottMP

Well said Joe

I have used both products and recieved top shelf asistants from both companys.

Scott



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john_83

Yes the primary contol failed and yes it was a honeywell product and yes they took responsibility. I guess a lot of it comes down to my regional rep but after three years of phone call after call and submitting bills. And not even a site visit or call from the company could've saved a lot of legal issues. And we did'nt switch for at least a couple of years but getting through to our rep was like reaching for the stars so it was time for a change as a installer you need a contact you can get a hold of when you have a problem. And as far as im concerned he represents Burnham. Its pretty cut and dry Its a great product but with out the backing what good is it

john_83

burnham

As a burnham installer for years I'll agree with rock had a similar problem with burnham. Very happy with Weil Mclain

Will_5

3 years!!!!!

If he authorized the replacement of the boiler site unseen that sounds pretty responsive to me........

Why would a site visit have prevented legal action if he gave you a boiler right away? If there was an oil spill was the insurance company involved? Any labor would usually go through an insurance company and get subrogated later.

Sound to me like the rep might be getting a bum rap, all the Burnham reps I've ever meet are good guys and are always willing to go the extra mile, of coarse there are always touchy situations which may not meet the customers expectations. I guess even the best Reps can have poor judgment at times, you can't be at the top of your game everyday!!!!!!

Sometimes you just run into someone at the wrong time, I'm sure I have a customer or two who aren't my biggest fans, I've certainly handled situations in the past that I wish I had handled differently. All the top manufactures have really good people, never let one bad experience foul you in this business. Remember, the guy you were mad at before could be the guy that can help you tomorrow. We all make mistakes from time to time

Will_5

Call Back?

Roger,
Did they refuse payment? Was there a law suit pending? Sounds like a little communication problem on both parts. I was a rep for a while and must admit that sometimes the customer would refuse to listen or didn't like my answer and kept calling and faxing me bills. Yes I did ignore his calls after that. Sometimes it's good to look at things from the other side of the fence. There are few bad reps, just sometimes situations with bad endings.

ScottMP

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Mike:

It looks like things have gone off on a tangent as often happens here when you ask for a brand comparison.

Both Burnham and Buderus are long-standing companies with excellent reputations. Provided the boiler is properly installed you can expect a long service life from virtually any cast iron boiler.

Your situation makes proper installation especially important. In-floor radiant and hydro-air are VERY different. If the in-floor is tube embedded in concrete, you can consider them at the far opposite ends of the spectrum.

(Gentlemen: please don't attack me for the following. I'm speaking in general and simple terms with general and simple control.)

Hydro-air will typically want quite hot supply water for a relatively short period of time while in-floor radant will typically want quite cool supply water for a relatively long period of time. Nearly anything can be accomplished via hydronics, but this situation requires special attention--regardless of the type or brand of boiler used.

Mike: Your system MUST have very effective protection against low return temperatures! Especially when the in-floor zone(s) are calling for heat without the air coils! I recall at least one homeowner relating a problem in a similar system where a cast iron boiler died a VERY early death because of a lack of low temperature protection when the floor heat zone called alone.

There are a number of ways to provide low temperature protection to a cast iron boiler in such a system. The simplest and most effective in this case will almost certainly be an ESBE type TV thermostatic bypass valve.

While the ESBE type TV thermostatic bypass will provide protection it may not do so efficiently. The greater the proportion of system load carried by the hydro-air, the less efficiency you'll get from the in-floor. If the load on the in-floor exceeds the hydro-air there won't be a problem using the ESBE type TV. If the hydro-air load exceeds the in-floor load significantly however you'll be wasting quite a bit of fuel just to protect the boiler and a good buffer system--with the buffer tank itself providing heat to the in-floor--will be called for.

The most important question you can ask of your installer is, "How have you protected my boiler from low return temperatures?" If they cannot answer in terms you reasonably understand, my best advice is to find a different contractor.

ScottMP

AAARRRRRNNNNTTTTT

There's the buzzer and Jims out of the game.

Thanks for playing.

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Joe@buderus_2

inquiry to Jim

Jim, you mentioned in a post that there was an issue with your installer and Buderus. I had requested information regarding this so I could look in to it, but have not heard anything. Please contact me at joe.kennard@bbtna.com or 1-800-283-3787, extension 1115. Thanks

ScottMP

Joe

I have a feeling you won't here from Jim.

Scott

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Robert O'Brien

They

both have zero control over who buys and installs their products,they sell to wholesalers who in turn sell to anyone who possesses the most important qualification of all,Money!
I don't sympathize at all with the bad rep they get or the money and time they must spend supporting substandard installs.
A/C mfg's seem to keep a better handle on who buys their products while still maintaining the traditional distribution chain. Why don't boiler mfg's?

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