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F09 Error code on Muchkin 140M

bobbyg_2
bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139
What does the flame sensor read? d7 -- status menu (see manual)

Comments

  • James_19
    James_19 Member Posts: 10
    F09 Error code on Muchkin 140M

    I am getting an F09 Error Code Daily on my 140M Munchkin Boiler, I get ignition and flame for about 2-3 seconds and then it shuts off, tries like 3 times then locks out with F09 code. Any suggestions would be great.

    Thanks
    James
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    common issue. Does the flame look OK. How long has it been installed? Natural gas or Propane?

    First thing we need to check is.....is the flame sensor doing what it is supposed to be doing?
    Have you checked the flame sensor rectification? d7 on the status menu (see manual) - while running, should be around 3.4 - 4.3 range.

    If it's been installed for a little bit.....check to make sure the condensate drain hose isn't clogged up. There should be a little vent hole in the connection fitting....make sure that isn't plugged up or covered.

    That should be a start.

  • James_19
    James_19 Member Posts: 10


    Flame does look ok, unit is 2 years old and is LP. I did check Condensate drain hose which seemed ok, I did pull and clean the probes. This fall upon initial fire up I was getting a F09 code maybe once a week and then it quit. Now that spring has come around and my boiler fires less it throws the F09 much more often. It seems if you can get it and keep it running its ok, its only when it sits for a while not running then throws the code more often?
  • Joannie_12
    Joannie_12 Member Posts: 42
    Flame

    You can't look at the flame and determine if the flame is "okay." This is a more sophisticated unit than that. Someone needs to diagnose what the problem is with proper tools.
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    Believe me I know that, I am trying to start narrowing things down.....Is that your help. Call a professional....Is James a professional? I would agree a professional should be doing this.....James...tell us your situation (homeowner who bought this over the internet, contractor, etc.)
  • Joannie_12
    Joannie_12 Member Posts: 42
    Understood

    Yes, Bobby, you are trying to help with specific questions, and I think that's a good thing. You helpfully stated, "First thing we need to check is.....is the flame sensor doing what it is supposed to be doing? Have you checked the flame sensor rectification? d7 on the status menu (see manual) - while running, should be around 3.4 - 4.3 range."

    And there was no mention of that in his answer to you. That's what I responding to. You took the time to give him a good answer, and now he needs to use that advice to narrow down the problem.

    That was the point I was making.
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
    Boy, wish I had a nickel for every

    F09 code ever posted here on this site! Has to be over 1000. Please let us know the solution is...
    Good Luck,

    Rick
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    Sorry for the confusion Timothy. Have a good day!
  • Bernie Riddle_2
    Bernie Riddle_2 Member Posts: 178


    I can see Rick's Supply House does not sell munchkins
    Why do i think that?
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    I am a wholesaler who sells Munchkin, W-M Ultra, and Loch. Knight boilers (not in that order) to licensed contractors.

    I have also seen a lot of F09 issues....I have fixed many, if not all, issues with F09. I only mention, if not all, because I wasn't told/consulted about a boiler with issues.(Can't fix'em if I don't know about them!)

    Supply House Rick there are many solutions. What brand do you sell?
  • Joannie_12
    Joannie_12 Member Posts: 42
    No Problem

    You have a good day, too, Bobby.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Guaranteed fix

    this is what we do
  • Munchie Millhouse
    Munchie Millhouse Member Posts: 2
    Bobby

    Buderus and Prestige for starters and let's just say I have seen my share of the dreaded F09! Won't ever see one again. There really has been over 1000 hits on that code over the past several years. Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I am free at last...
  • Munchie Millhouse
    Munchie Millhouse Member Posts: 2
    Amen Brother

    As a EX-Munchkin installer Traingle Tube Prestige is SUPERIOR on all levels. Only install a Munchkin if you have a lot of free time to go back to job. But you will really get to know the customer really really well.
  • Bernie Riddle_2
    Bernie Riddle_2 Member Posts: 178


    All 110,000 btu's for every small job, come on.
  • Milton
    Milton Member Posts: 1
    Have you ever heard of

    Modulation?
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    That was funny. You guys are celebrating way too much! Thanks for the laugh!!!
  • James_19
    James_19 Member Posts: 10


    I will check the flame sensor reading when I get home, I am not a professional just a homeowner, I tried 3 different companies who sell and install the units and they were no help for various reasons. So I thought I would try the forum route first and go from there, you all have given me more info in a few mins than anyone else so thanks for all, I will keep you updated, Thanks for all your help.
  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    I'm about 3x oversized...

    This past winter, my total daily consumption exceeded 600,000 BTUs only 12 times.

    600,000/24 = 25 MBH << less than minimum modulation

    On the worst day I consumed 708,000 BTUs with an indoor temperature of 70°.

    780,000/24 = 29½ MBH << less than minimum modulation


    The average daily compsumption from mid-December to now works out to be around 380,000 BTUs/day. That's equivalent to a 15-16 MBH average over the course of a day. If you factor in daily variations and light mid-afternoon loads, a significant portion of the heating load is in the 10 MBH range.

    For my system to fully modulate, I'd need something like a 38-10 MBH boiler. Nobody makes such a boiler that I know of.

    Despite what looks like completely excessive capacity, it works extremely efficiently, quietly, and delivers heat without ever being noticed.

    Oversizing isn't such a big deal with M-C boilers. By manual J the boiler is 2x oversized (55K), but by daily experience, I'm about 3x oversized. I'm not quite sure what the downsides or missed opportunites are.
  • Bernie Riddle_2
    Bernie Riddle_2 Member Posts: 178


    Uni R This says to me then that the manufactorers are spot on, one size fits all, Why change?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,804
    But we would still prefer smaller mod cons

    I saw 11, 15, and 18KW mod con heat exchangers at several booths at ISH.

    Including the company that builds the stainless coiled HXeres for many manufactures.

    They had a wall display with about 10 different sizes of blank HX blocks from 11- 80KW.

    So the product does exist. Who will be the first to bring one over and assemble the gas train and control.

    I hope it is Lochinvar as they have the best controller by far.

    I think they need to be convinced there is enough market for under 50,000 mod cons.

    I'd love to see an 11KW about the size of a lunch bucket,1-1/2" PVC venting :)

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,804
    I've never had a Munchkin that

    I couldn't get fixed and operating. Although several did require a few return trips.

    I'd remove every electrical connection and assure they are clean and tight. Including all the green ground points.

    Has the front been off? If it is not tight or the gasket is cracked you will code out.

    Ever been wet inside? From a plugged drain. ifd so the gasket may need replacement.

    Be sure the boiler is level or pitched to the back for condensate to drain properly. Sometimes during installation they get tilted forward in their case.

    The drain connection with the pin hole? Remove it an use a tee to assure that stays clear.

    The flame rods will continue to soot if the burner is not dialed in properly.

    HX ever been cleaned? Once a year is good practice.

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
    Hot Rod

    I think the problem with bringing small input units over here is the the majority of installers still use the finger method for boiler sizing.

    "heat loss??, We don't need no stinking heat loss!!"

    I finished a calc today for a house that's 7100 sq ft with the heated garage. The design heat load was a couple btu's over 100K. Based on past experience with HVAC Calc and installations in similar homes, I'm going to recommend something in the 80K range for heat. I have no doubt it will be sufficient. The HO told me that he has a bid from another contractor which includes a 400K boiler!!!

    When it becomes mandatory to supply a calculated heat loss with a mechanical permit, we may begin to see demand for smaller boilers. Until then, the urge to oversize often exceeds the sex drive in typical males. :)
  • Leo G_99
    Leo G_99 Member Posts: 223
    Hey Steve

    we installed a T-80 into a 9,000 footer 2 years ago, course here we aim for 19* as our coldest degree day. But that little beauty has done the job just fab! Hot water too!

    Leo G
  • James_19
    James_19 Member Posts: 10


    Flame sensor read .3 last night when I checked it but it would not stay fired to get a reading while it was actually running the reading i got was while it was trying to fire, again 3 tries and it wont stay lit. I verified that the condensate line is not plugged and unit is clean I have no idea what to check next.
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    The flame sensor should be reading in the 3.0-4.2 range.

    If it's really 0.3 then the flame sensor either has been (1.)cleaned improperly (polished not sanded - I recommend nothing stronger than a dollar bill) or (2)there is a short/bad connection between the flame sensor and board.

    But after changing the flame sensor or finding the short/bad connection I would record the flame sensor reading and date it.

    If the flame sensor gets dirty over a short amount of time, you need to get a combustion analysis done to tweak the gas/air ratio. It is important to not run your tank dry or get the "dirty" Lp into your gas line.
  • James_19
    James_19 Member Posts: 10


    I found and fixed my problem, I had corrosion on my board terminals and on my connector pins a white residue, so I cleaned them and everything works fine now. I have a 3.9 reading now while running. I do still need to do a combustion analyzation test soon to make sure i'm dialed in right. My next job is i'm installing an outdoor boiler to heat my garage 30 x 56 and tie it in to my existing system in my house through a heat exchanger. I have pex in the slab in my garage and house and in joist floor heating for my main floor, total of 6000 sq ft. My propane bill this year so far is about $3000, i'm going to use mine run coal for $50 ton should save a good bit of money,lol.

    Thanks for everyones help, I am a homeowner but felt confident with good advice I could get the job done. I will prob seek professional help for the combustion test.

    James
  • bobbyg_2
    bobbyg_2 Member Posts: 139


    Glad you got it going. Was there a white crusty covering on the gas valve and other things?

    This could be an issue with recirculation of your flue gases. Make sure your exhaust and intake are separated. If your using a concentric vent, make sure the cap is glued tight.

    Keep an eye on the flame sensor reading over time.

    Good Luck!!!
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    what would the equivalant of f09 or f10 be on a prestige or ultra. is the honeywell mcba incapable of detecting ignition falures
  • Uni R_3
    Uni R_3 Member Posts: 299
    E 02

    Ultra - if flame not proved in 4½ sec.s after 5x - E 02

    Prestige - same deal
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    so is the flame or ignition bullet proof on those units if yes why do you feel it's not on the munchkin
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Beacause


    the Munchkin sucks!!! There Christie!! Gotthat?!?!?! IT S U C K S!!

    The rest of you just keep selling the problems.

    Munchkin my ****.!@!!!!!!!!!!!
This discussion has been closed.