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GB142 Install in the Hudson Valley

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Brad White
Brad White Member Posts: 2,398
Simplicity is a virtue- that carries it well. No wasted material, easy to follow. Nice job!
"If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



-Ernie White, my Dad

Comments

  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
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    New Buderus Customer Install

    Was fortunate to go on a follow up call today. John usually installs Weil McLain or Burnham. Relatively new to the Buderus line and to the Wall.

    Please review the photo's and let me know what you think. Thanks...

    John, thanks for your business and welcome to the Wall!

    Rick
  • Tom Kane
    Tom Kane Member Posts: 56
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    gb install

    Hey John........
    Nice looking install, I'm curious to talk to you since you've tried one, I'll give Rick a call and set up a date to go see you. Nice job!
  • Singh_6
    Singh_6 Member Posts: 19
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    stickers

    I like the way you removed those stickers on the front! I hate them also, why would Buderus put stickers on the front cover, and ruin the beauty of the GB142.
    You ever seen bumper stickers on a Benz ? Buderus take note.
    Nice work , and welcome.

    From a friend of Rick.

  • Darin Cook_5
    Darin Cook_5 Member Posts: 298
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    Nice Work

    Nice piping work! The only real critique I would offer is that I would have preferred to have seen the water feed brought directly into the Point of No Pressure Change. It should work fine though. You will be happy with the GB. VERY, VERY dependable equipment. Happy Heating!!







    Darin
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    Nice Job

    It's a real nice piping job. A couple of things. Is there a backflow preventer on the water feed? Get that relief valve piped to a drain or within 6" of the floor. How are you going to handle the condensate? I really don't like Buderus' "cup" collecter for the bottom of the boiler. You have to support the drain piping right up to it. Did you use the provided 3x1/2"npt tee to drip condensate from the flue?

    Don't mean to nitpick but it's the little things....

    Tom G
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76
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    sorry guys job was not completly done when rick took pictures. If you notice some of the wiring isnt complete yet.
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    John

    I installed a GB in a small closet with the 30gal indirect and as the job got closer to completion it got busier, and busier...., a real two pound in a one pound if you know what I mean. Didn't mean to bust chops, just dot the I's and cross the T's.

    It's still a good looker, I'm envious of the room. Keep it up.

    Tom G.

  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Nice work

    I see a potential air trap and circ cavitator. The connection from the top of the pipe then down... It may need an air vent there?

    hot rod

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,962
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    Neat and clean, nice job, dude

    But the others gentle critiques should be observed on the next one. Way to go! I am NEVER 100% happy with our installs.....there is ALWAYS a better and faster way to do things and I am always looking for THAT way. Mad Dog

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Joe@buderus_2
    Joe@buderus_2 Member Posts: 302
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    Nice install. Effective yet simple. There can be much input and info to learn from the wall. Thanks for the support.
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
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    Thank You

    For graciously welcoming a new friend to the Wall. Great job John and thank you for your business...

    Rick
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    ONE TEMP ?


    Not to be critical but I don't think slab and onix underfloor belong on the same heating curve. while sandwiched pipe systems (quick track) can operate along with slab heat, onix is going to require much hotter water than the basement slab. At best this will result in temperature swings (sine wave) for the slab area as circulator cycles on and off. At worst the water temperatures required to heat the underfloor zones at design temps could damage the slab.

    I suggest an high limit aquastat on the slab circulator for protection. Also pulse width modulation thermostats to compensate for thermal inertia of slab an the temperature fluctuations that will result from on off control.

    Let me know if you think I'm wrong, I'm just going by what I have read .This may be influenced by manufactures wanting to sell more stuff.

    By the way Rick which hudson valley supply house are you with? I'v bought a couple GB's from N+S.
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
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    Shhhh

    It's a secret...

  • singh_7
    singh_7 Member Posts: 2
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    also

    where is the LWCO . NYS Code!!
    why the globe valve on the expansion tank? Rick you ran out of ball valves?
    Did you set up with combustion test yet?

    Don't mean to nit pic.
    I just did an estimate for a GB142, and I got the "wow that's more than we budgeted for"
    I had to work all last weekend putting an estimate together. I had to explain why the multiple temps required mixing, controls, and how I set up boiler using a digital tester etc.. Not many in Hudson Valley do.
    I got the job, but we have to trim down the price. Fine by me , but you won't get this or that I told them.
    Some days I feel like giving in.
    Sorry for the rant.

    John, I'll help you if you want, Rick has my number
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    combustion test

    When you do your combustion tests(on a gb) how often do you find that an adjustment needs to be made? I had the gas company come out and do a combustion test on my first vitodens instal, everything was to specs. I guess I kind of assumed that at this altitude the need to do any adjustment was unlikely. Am I just rationalizing? What would you charge for this service? the gas company guys are not so familiar with this equipment, It would be good to have someone experienced do this sort of thing.would you be interested?
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76
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    Okay guys i will try to answer some of your questions. As far as onyx and the slab temps i know some guys feel they need higher temps with onyx but most of the time i do fine with lower temps . the only time i have problems is in large great rooms with alot of glass. My last job was an 11 zone radiant job with four different floor types all with onyx. And the only room i had a problem with was the great room which happened to be 25x22 with 20 ft ceilings and all glass. Needless to say i have a supply temp of around 145 when it really gets cold outside. That zone i chose to put on its own injection loop to better control. This job i used a Weil Mclain ultra which until now was really the only other modcon I've installed. Pretty big with weil but Rick was raving about these gb,s so I had to try one, I'm on My second Gb install right now. The low water cutoff is something i never use on a ultra and Usaully after explaining the kind of boiler they are to the building inspector he will let it go , But he wants to see it in writing that the boiler really does not reguire one. Have'nt had one inspector fail me yet. I did the combustion test today and Everthing fell pretty close to ther parameters. The best part was seeing the 98 on the effiency. Just bought the combustion anaylyzer real good invest. It really puts Everthing to bed. And the valve on the expansion tank is a stop and waste valve so if tank goes bad you can release pressure before you change it out.
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    john, with all respect 145 is not exactly low temp, infact it's pushing the limit of what safe for concrete from what I understand. Also on your other job I'm not sure why you would put the zone with the greatest load on an injection loop, it's the zone/zones with the lower temp.requirements that really need this.
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    Multiple Temps

    I recently had a job which required four temps. An addition to a forced air house. Baseboards for basement heat. 4" slab for the new sub basement under the lap pool. Thin slab for the pool room floor and pool deck. Extruded plates for master bath floor warming.

    I dialed in the Ultra reset curve for 145* at design. For all the other zones I piped in a balancing valve bypass right at the suction side of the zone pump. It took awhile to balance but I was quite pleased with the results. The spring check for the thin slab chatters a little. It's running full bypass so it has the least flow back into the boiler return.

    The endless lap pool and accessible bath are for a disabled homeowner. Awesome guy and awesome job.

    Tom G
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76
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    Sorry if yo read what i was saying the 145 temp was on a completely different job and that room had the largest heating load out of the 11 zones. And as far as injection loops for that zone with it own outdoor rest and design. The 145 degree like i said was on the coldest days of the year. And i think thats a pretty large room to heat. It had nothimg to do with a slab. I'll try to be more clear next time. Besides i would you injection loops all the time if it were up to me. My guys at heatway would probally diagree with you.
  • singh_8
    singh_8 Member Posts: 1
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    John

    Sorry , did not mean to jump on you.
    Glad you bought a analyzer. Absolutly necessary, especially with all mod cons. I love showing the
    owners the 97+ eff.
    I put valves on my expansion tank also, just curious why you use a stop and waste.Now you have a restiction btwix the tank, unlike a full port bv. Which way the arrow pointing? : )
    The internal pressure switch is not a LWCO. My understanding, you can still flash to steam, and have pressure, not the same as a LWCO. Ignore those inspectors, I had one look right at a GB and asked where's the boiler. He thought it was a tankless.
    I have to agree with Scott about the 145* in concrete. Ouch!! What's under the onix, foil bubble?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    A couple thoughts, Tom

    I have had the clattering check valve problem also. Usually it indicates an oversized check valve. It's rare in radiant zones that you would need a check the same size as the pipe size. The gpm rateing on the valve is the key.

    Agreed it looks funny but a 1/2" check would probably be more than enough to handle the flow in those zones and eliminate chatter.

    Also soft seat checks are a good choice.

    Look at the checks used in the Grundfos circs for example, about a 5/8" port size, plastic to plastic seat and valve.

    Manual balance valves for temperature control offer a nice clean simple method. They cannot react to temperature change in the boiler loop or as the return temperatutre changes, which is why they are so hard to balance and keep balanced.

    A 3 way thermostatic is another simple approch, for not much money. It can nail the temperature to within a few degrees regardless of flow rates or other pumps running.

    As always a nice clean well piped job :)

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    Thanks HR

    The compliment really means a lot coming from you. When I started doing low temp radiant mixing valves were all I knew. It wasn't the cost of the TMV's as much as the clutter. Since the zones are so small the boiler settles in to steady state pretty quick. The bypass/mix temps settle in right along with it. The valve chatter is only noticable in the mechanical room below the pool room. What started as (I thought) a mechanical room turned into a finished sub-basement with a closet for the boiler, my dehumidification system, two sump pits, and all the pool/spa mechanicals.
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    Thanks HR

    The compliment really means a lot coming from you. When I started doing low temp radiant mixing valves were all I knew. It wasn't the cost of the TMV's as much as the clutter. Since the zones are so small the boiler settles in to steady state pretty quick. The bypass/mix temps settle in right along with it. The valve chatter is only noticable in the mechanical room below the pool room. What started as (I thought) a mechanical room turned into a finished sub-basement with a closet for the boiler, my dehumidification system, two sump pits, and all the pool/spa mechanicals. That's the 4" slab zone. Only 14'x16' and about 12' below grade. I told the HO they might want to keep that slab running even when they're running the AC. It's seven steps down from the original basement. Yeah, the sump runs a lot.

    Didn't mean to get off topic with this install. It IS a simple way to mix down for small zones. I have one coming up that was going to be basement and two overpours and now they want to plate the second floor. It kills me to adjust the reset curve on a mod-con for the smallest zone worth of emitter.

    Tom G
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,398
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    That is one super

    installation, Tom! Easy to service, easy to follow. Nice stand for the DHU. All there for the eye to see. We should all get such opportunities. Excellent- thanks for sharing!
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76
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    ultra

    Nice install did you find it difficult with the wiring hanging it on the wall. I always floor mount but usually have all the room i want in the size houses we do. Btu someday i will probably have no choice so was just wondering
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    John

    I like the wall mount. Yeah it's tough to get to the wiring compartment. I pipe the flue with stainless mission couplings to remove if necessary. I was about this short (forefinger-thumb) of standing one off the wall with unistrut and backed off. Temp fire with many wiring "laters". It's a great look with the Ultra just hanging on the wall, doing it's thing. We'll just uncouple the combustion piping and do our wiring when ready.
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    analyzer

    John, While I respect your position on the analyzer I was really hoping to get an answer as to weather you had actually ever needed to tweek a factory adjustment on a GB or not.
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    injection on hottest zone?

    John I did understand that you were talking about another job but assumed that the onix would require 140 or so at design in most applications anyway. Are you using conductor plates?

    What I still don't understand is other job that you describe. Why was the zone with the need for the hottest water selected for injection mixing. Yes this may give a higher degree of "control" than the boiler reset curve alone. But injection or mixing valves are designed to create cooler zones not hotter.I would guess that your injection pump is running full out just to maintain a temperature that is the same as the rest of the zones. What am I missing here?
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    injecion on hottest zone?

    John, what I still don't understand about the other job you described is why the zone with the need for the highest water temperature is on an injection bridge. Injection or motorized mixing- control water temperatures by selectively lowering them.It's my guess that your injection pump is running at full throttle just to try and maintain a temperature that is the same as the one it is injecting from. What am I missing here? does the rest of the system run at a fixed temperature?

    Included a picture of a recent gb job. boiler controlled by Tekmar 270 (not shown), utilizes the 270's dhw control for settpiont operation of unit heaters, trv'd pannel rads. home run piped on full reset downstream from unit heaters in direct return, DHW handled by GB sensor and relay.

    I don't use a LWCO either I see it as a potential nuisance failure, and feel that the boiler is adequately protected by it's own sensors.
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    Hey Brad

    The DHU stand came from WW Grainger. The pool equipment contractor on this job turned me on to it. It's that playground type plastic, very strong, about 60 bucks. Fit the bill nicely. I've used it a couple times since then.

    Interesting note. I started off with the floor/pool deck running on second stage heat for the DryAire unit but at 88* pool temp, 79* room temp, and 55% RH the floor heat rarely came on. I rewired it for the floor and DHU/heat mode to pull in both at first stage and it's working like a dream. I was there today (38* OD) and the pool deck surface temp was a balmy 78*. The deck height was set so Joel could slide off his wheelchair right onto the deck and into the pool. Your right Brad. I feel blessed to have had the opportunity to be involved in this one.
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76
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    injection

    Mark My design temp of 145 is on the coldest days of the year does it run at that temp all the time no thats the point. On real cold days thats what it requires but for the majority the temp is usaully much lower. The system has two injection loops and one three way mixing valve the fourth temp is my DHW. Injection loops in my books for larger jobs are very good way to mix and caculate. Everyone has there way of doing things.
  • Tombig_2
    Tombig_2 Member Posts: 231
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    John

    We all have our way of delivering the best to the customer. Don't feel slighted. Some of us (including me) chose to diss your work. I'm sure you put the best foot forward on every job. Keep it up...to The Wall standards.

    All the best, Tom G
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    I'm sorry if any of my questions came off as a put down, I'm just interested in using this forum to exchange ideas and opinions.Yes there are many way's to accomplish the same thing, but an honest dialog can be helpful in determining what the best means to an end might be.

    As far as that goes how come I'm not getting any response to my combustion analysis Gb specific question?
  • Joe@buderus_2
    Joe@buderus_2 Member Posts: 302
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    GB142 set up

    While I do not install the GB's on a daily basis, based on the calls that I receive on how to adjust the gas/air mixture ratio it seems very few GB142 need adjustment. I suggest checking incoming gas pressure, both static and operating (this is where I see the most issues with gas - static pressure is fine, but when gas valve opens pressure drops below min requirements) and check CO. This can give a good indication if the gas/air adjustment is needed.
This discussion has been closed.