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Rock On Steve Ebels

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rb_6
rb_6 Member Posts: 222
Ok Andrew, I'm up putting some finishing touches on a paper so what’s your story...coyotes howling a little loud tonight?

Weird on the link – reads better in Mozilla than IE…and the .pdf they have up is corrupt – can’t read it. Have sent the Editor, Kerry Turner a note.

Just heating on the rocks…no cooling - but if Steve did…he could have nice little sensible sponge going on…

Now it’s back to the books…

Later.

Rb

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  • rb_6
    rb_6 Member Posts: 222
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    You're now a wanted man north of the border...bring your tools

    Here's your story...

    http://www.hpac.sartech.ca/digimag/display.asp?a=275

    rb
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
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    Ebels

    Nice. Is the system in operation currently? How well does the cooling of the fireplace work?

    The article is a bit difficult to read. The text is jumbled in my browser. (IE7) Thanks Robert.
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 1,036
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    word of caution

    The article was difficult to read but the photo showed a factory built wood burning fireplace with a plywood substrate over the mantel onto which was run PEX them stone veneer. When dealing with factory built fireplaces, you must follow the mfrs. listed instructions. This is a code requirement. If the mfr. calls for non-combustible board in that location then the plywood and PEX must come out. FYI, the UL 127 std. for factory built woodburning fireplaces allows a max. surface temp on the facing of 117F above the ambient test room temp. measured 18" from the Fp opening and on the floor, mantel and ceiling. Since open hearths are huge energy hogs, you aren't going to save any money using a fireplace for heat with any rig.

    FYI, if you rig a factory built Fp with ducts or modify any ducts provided by the mfr. you void the warranty and listing.

    IF this was such a brilliant idea, don't you think the hearth mfrs. would be racing to build it? Yes, it has been thought of before. I used to work for a major mfr.


    Just my 7 cents worth.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
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    assumptions???????

    you seem to be making a lot of assumptions here?

    how can you tell that the nearby construction wasn't to code? its all covered up?

    are you saying that mantle is too close to the firebox?

    as far as surface temp, I think they are refering to the surface temp caused by the stove. certainly the pex couldn't cause any sort of problem to the fireplace.


  • I'm not an expert, but that looks like an insert to me. Aren't units like that pretty much zero clearance?

  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
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    Caution is a good thing Bob

    However, I feel that most manufacturers recommendations are driven by overly zealous lawyers intent on protecting their clients. That being the case, I decided to pick up some "free heat" and ran the pex right through the top of the firebox. I figured if it got too hot it would just melt and douse the fire. Kind of an automatic fire sprinkler system if you will. To date, all is well and we're picking up btu's normally wasted by all fireplaces. They are all a poor use of wood, gas or whatever you happen to be burning.



    NOT!! :) Couple days late for April Fool's day but hey, this opportunity was too good to pass up. :);)


    Seriously Bob, the fireplace is a see through gas fired model which is not easily visible in the photo as I don't think the fake logs were in place. We did observe all manufacturers recommended clearances to combustible materials around the exposed surfaces and face. Also not easily discerned in the photos is the fact that the fireplace is not an open hearth model. It's glass front and back.

    AFA as your last statement is concerned, there more than just a grain of truth to my drivel regarding corporate lawyers!!!
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
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    Thanks Robert!

    I do get a bang out of thinking "outside the box". The possibilities for radiant heating and/or cooling are often limited only by imagination and budget. Just look at Hot Rod's radiant dog and other assorted and sundry items he's wrapped with pex. Radiant heat rules!! (As an illustration of that, just let your mind wander about the possibilities for register openings on a forced air dog)

    As the system stands right now the fireplace is heating only. The house however, is cooled via a 3T chiller and I left valves in place that would allow switching the stone to cooling mode should the owner ever get a wild hair..............or I talk him into letting me play with it. It really wouldn't be difficult to do.
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 1,036
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    dangerous attitude

    What you do in your own home is your business. If this was done for a customer and there was an injury, you could go to jail. Moreover, by posting it here in the Internet condoning such tinkering, you encourage others to do the same. Should somebody get hurt because they got the idea from you, you could be personally liable. Then again, anyone entering your home or living nearby may be at risk. Could be construed as reckless endangerment.

    You have voided the warranty and listing of this fireplace. It also violates most every applicable code in the US because appliances must be listed and pressure vessels must be rated. Such things are better left to R&D labs. While most open fireplaces are inefficient, that's no license to modify them.

    FYI, the only place factory built fireplaces are rated zero clearance is underneath. Each make and model has stated clearances for the sides, rear, and top. It also states clearances to the facing, what type of material can be used in proximity to the facing, etc. However, with your modifications, all that went out the window.

    You can joke about me being an alarmist. I used to investigate product liability cases for a major hearth appliance mfr. and now I am an independent investigator. I still think what you are doing is asking for trouble but more so, you are encouraging others to take unnecessary risks. Your experiment should never have been posted on the internet. Your cavalier attitude may come back to haunt you.

    BTW, should you ever be involved in major litgation, this information will be found during the discovery process and used against you. Afterall, if you are willing to flagrantly throw caution, testing, codes, and listings to the wind, then surely you would be predisposed to do so elsewhere. Think about it.
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
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    Danger

    Please point out the dangerous part of this installation. We do not know exactly what is behind the rock that has already been installed. I do not see how someone could be hurt by this installation.
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
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    Forget your meds Bob?

    Go back and read my post a little closer, especially the part about April Fool's. :) and again :)

    Just to put your mind at ease, let me reiterate that all manufacturer clearances WERE adhered to on this and every installation we do. The home belongs to one of my kids......so safety obviously wasn't swept under the rug. It is a sealed combustion gas fireplace, NOT WOOD. The only thing actually touching the fireplace itself is cement and I don't think that burns at anything short of nuclear temperatures. I don't understand how you think I modified the manufacturers design of the fireplace.
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