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PEX opinions
kevin coppinger_4
Member Posts: 2,124
I use Vangaurd pex for water piping(crimp) and Uponor/wirsbo (expansiontion) for heat....I would probably stay away from plastic fittings used w/ crimp rings.
kpc
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kpc
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Comments
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Pex opinions
First off, I'm going to guess that the biggest factor, once again, is a quality install, with brand of materials a distant second, but...
All other things being equal, is there a pex fastener brand or type (crimp/"expanding") that you'd especially recommend or avoid? I'm getting estimates for extensive repiping (potable water, not heating) and wondered if I should be factoring this into the decision. I'm guessing most installers stick with one type, with the proprietary fittings, etc., and haven't heard the same brand mentioned twice among the guys who've been out so far.
Thanks,
Patrick0 -
> I use Vangaurd pex for water piping(crimp) and
> Uponor/wirsbo (expansiontion) for heat....I would
> probably stay away from plastic fittings used w/
> crimp rings. kpc
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 323&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
I had a plumber tell me that there were problems with the brass crimp fittings on domestic water that is why he swithched to plactic. I use the kitec K2 crimp fittings with the kitec PAP pipe.0 -
I had a plumber tell me that there were problems with the brass crimp fittings on domestic water that is why he swithched to plactic. I use the kitec K2 crimp fittings with the kitec PAP pipe.0 -
Patrick
You are correct. Quality installation is probably more important than brand. One thing: Stay away from a manifold system. (All brands can be installed as a manifold system) Instead use an insulated, recirculating loop operated by circ with timer or temp sensor. I have made them recirculate without a pump in 2 story houses, but this can be very difficult. Run this loop as close by every point of use as possible. A recirc loop will give you hot water much quicker and avoid wasting water. There ARE several advantages to the manifold system. All of them for the installer. "Less fittings equals less leaks" they may say. That is moot because you expect NO leaks regardless of how many fittings there are.
I like the Wirsbo Pro-Pex fitting. The Wirsbo SSC fitting is good but doesn't look as professional. They have yet a third that is good that I've not used. Viega has a "hydraulic hose" looking fitting that I like. I've done lots of Vanguard crimps and they seem to be fine but less professional looking. Rehau has a nice stainless sleeve I've never used. Really, when it's covered up most of my personal preference won't matter a lot. Have them use well secured copper stub-outs rather than bringing pex out of the wall for sink shut-offs etc. This will give you a more secure mount, that looks better, and is easy to attach compression stops (shut-off valves) to. Insist on the 1/4 turn ball valve style stops. They don't get stuck after years of not being moved, and look like the others for comparable price. Lastly, hire someone you like and trust, and be willing to pay more if necessary. "When you buy quality (and service) you only cry once." Kevin0 -
I personally....
....do not like crimp fittings, and avoid them whenever possible.
Wirsb..........oops, I mean Uponor's 'Propex' line is my favorite. The fittings are expansion type, rather than crimp. You need their expansion tool, but I've never had a leak yet.
Starch0 -
I, on the other hand prefer...
crimp style connections. I have used them for many years without any problems.
Included in this use the plain copper ring and barbed fitting as well as the Viega stainless and Uponor MultiPress fittings.
And on occasion I do mix and match brands. If the fitting and the ring have all the proper listing numbers they will interchange.
I'd rather not depend on an o-ring seal, and prefer the Viega tube/ fitting if you want the aluminum layered tube (FostaPex)
hot rod
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As one Kevin to another...
I could not disagree w/ you more on the use of manifolds. I actually MUCH prefer the Manifold/ Manabloc set up especially the Vangaurd type. There are many advantages to this set up over the conventional set up. Less waste of water, faster install, faster hot water to the fixture (especially if you put the indirect tank next to the manabloc), less or no fittings in the walls, able to snake tubing around corners very easy...for starters....This set up uses 3/8 pex to the smaller fixtures...lavs,toilets,etc. kpc
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Let's see Kevin
Quote:
"I could not disagree w/ you more on the use of manifolds. I actually MUCH prefer the Manifold/ Manabloc set up especially the Vangaurd type. There are many advantages to this set up over the conventional set up. Less waste of water, faster install, faster hot water to the fixture (especially if you put the indirect tank next to the manabloc), less or no fittings in the walls, able to snake tubing around corners very easy...for starters....This set up uses 3/8 pex to the smaller fixtures...lavs,toilets,etc. kpc"
Let me answer your objections: FIRST:"Less or no fittings in the walls, and able to snake tubing around corners easily." These two points do not give the end-user a better SYSTEM. They might possibly save him a few bucks on installation, but this whole web-site is not about cheaper, but about installing systems that may cost more upfront- but because of the comfort and value the offer over the life of the system-they're worth it. SECOND: The fittings won't leak, and the cost difference is relatively minimal, so we'll throw out those two points.
Now, the remaining two points are the only ones that matter,(in the context of a better system) but they are arguable. "Less waste of water, and faster delivery of hot water to the fixture, especially by putting the tank next to the manifold." You are correct that smaller line and a closer tank will save time and water. However, with an insulated, recirculating loop, the loop, in effect, BECOMES the tank. The tank is essentially within a few feet of every fixture. The hot water is there quicker, which saves water and time. Why have separate lines going to each fixture? You must waste the water in each separate line waiting for the hot, rather than only wasting what's in a few feet of pipe between the loop and the fixture. That's the way I see it. With a name like Kevin, surely you see things my way! Kevin0 -
And can be
Re-circed at the manifold point, at least.
Jed0 -
And never
use a crimp ring on the bronze Press fitting. Not authorized, not warrantied, not right.
Jed0 -
Yes Jed,
I have seen where the manifold was rather far from the tank, and they had a recirc loop from the tank to the manifold. If they just eliminate the manifold and put in a longer recirc loop, they'd basically be taking the tank to the fixture. The other Kevin is right though, if you use a manifold, 3/8" tube will get the heat there quicker than 1/2". (it will cost something in pressure/flow though)
I know lots of people just use 1/2" because they have some laying around, and maybe the 3/8" isn't in stock. Again, not the best for the customer in the long run. Kevin0 -
I guess I don't agree.
What do you see as disadvantages of manifolds that you would "steer" a customer away...as you said to the original poster.kpc
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Kevin P.
What about the pressure/flow losses in a branch system vs. home runs and manifolds?
EJW0 -
Fair question.
I run 3/4" for hot and cold, running the hot as close as possible to each bathroom, kitchen sink, laundry room, etc..
Of course, this takes a bit more time and material, but it's worth the trouble. Then, I hook onto the hot with 1/2" and bring it back to the starting point. I insulate both hot and cold, (I don't want the cold picking up heat from the radiant floor) and add a swing check valve to the return so it can only flow one way.
I tee off of the 3/4" mains with 1/2". Typically, it might be only 4 feet from main to shower or sink.
I don't have any hard numbers, but my customers are happy with response time, pressure, and flow. Somewhere last year in one of the trade magazines there was even an editorial about an industry trend away from the manifold system.
Something to consider for sure. Kevin0 -
I have used the Wirsbo ProPex fittings since they first came out. I have never had one fitting fail. I think you could pull a car with their pipe and fittings and the fitting would not fail. The joints are fast and bullet proof. Why Wirsbo ever came out with other types of fittings is beyond me.
Dave in DenverThere was an error rendering this rich post.
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Viega - hands down
We sell the Viega press sleeves, approx 200,000 last year. We also sell Wirsbo ProPex, Roth HDSS(murray cinch clamp), and the copper rings from Cello and Vanguard. 95% + of our customers choose the Viega press system. Besides the fact that they work, they look like a high quality joint somewhat justifying the job costs charged by the plumber.
When we have gotten the rare comment of a leaking joint, it was acknowledged as installation error, and/or,sometimes pushing the sleeve too far up on a beveled fitting from a company like Sioux Chief. The sleeve can be pushed up on the shoulder of the fitting causing an improper press/crimp.
We show our customers samples of all the joint methods and Viega is chosen overwhelmingly. We actually get a alot of converts from Wirsbo because of the time involved to make their joint.
We sell 98% brass fittings from several sources but sell hardly any Viega fittings - too expensive. Naturally, Viega has said they won't honor a warranty issue unless its their pex, with their ring, and their fitting. I think all the manufacturers adopt this posture.
In terms of joint strength, I believe Wirsbo is best but no one puts several hundred pounds of pressure in the pex anyway so it becomes a mute point.0 -
I like Pro Pex connection too
But I understand (I think) why Wirsbo makes others.
Some folks like other styles, so Wirsbo makes a tool for everyone so you'll still buy their tube even if you're more of a "crimp" guy than an "expander" guy. On the down side, those pex rings like to slide up the tube if you are dealing with a "wet" joint. And some guys complain about slow contraction in cold weather. I'm with you though, they look great and are super strong. You can also make a connection in places where the tool won't fit- just expand it and shove the pipe back in quick! Kevin0 -
Kevin
The benefits for both installer and homeowner are overwhelming with the manifold system. Wasted water, hot water response time, individual shut offs for EVERY fixture in the house, choices of soft and hard water from one manifold, practically NO pressure drop (when I'm shaving, flushing, doing laundry, dishes and wifes showering while I'm watering my front....and back lawn haha). It's proven in multiple studies. You may pay more in materials but labor is so much shorter which in turn benefits both. It's a bold statement to come out and say to stay away from manifolds at all costs (i know thats not exact but something like that). I could post some links about studies done with 3/8" PEX in home run style installations and also about homerun vs. branch and tee.0 -
Although this thread started out as PEX options
it has moved to a discussion of Manifold vs. Recirc loop for the hotwater. This is my interest and I didn't want to take over from the original poster on his question about PEX options and start a new post within his about Manifold and Recirc so I've made a new thread called Manifold vs. Recirc Loop. Hope that is okay.0 -
Who is \"Contractor:?
> The benefits for both installer and homeowner are
> overwhelming with the manifold system. Wasted
> water, hot water response time, individual shut
> offs for EVERY fixture in the house, choices of
> soft and hard water from one manifold,
> practically NO pressure drop (when I'm shaving,
> flushing, doing laundry, dishes and wifes
> showering while I'm watering my front....and back
> lawn haha). It's proven in multiple studies. You
> may pay more in materials but labor is so much
> shorter which in turn benefits both. It's a bold
> statement to come out and say to stay away from
> manifolds at all costs (i know thats not exact
> but something like that). I could post some links
> about studies done with 3/8" PEX in home run
> style installations and also about homerun vs.
> branch and tee.
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Reach for your calculator Contractor!
(Said with a mock squinty stare, poncho thrown over my shoulder, and dramatic background score of orchestra mixed with a strange, warbling whistle) I'm not a great mathematician, but I think this is provable and not simply opinion. "Wasted water, quicker response time, and less pressure drop." I think the numbers will surprise you! My math shows the manifold system would waste 5 times as much water and have 15 times more pressure drop. "Shutoffs for EVERY fixture in the house." Well, shutoffs are MUCH HANDIER installed at point of use! Who wants to run downstairs to the manifold to shut off the 2nd story sink when the NoBurst DoesBurst? Unless the tube is damaged by a careless sub, or you're remodeling in the future, there is practically no need to ever shut off at the manifold. CHECK MY MATH from Wirsbo CDAM4th edition (pages297 appendix K and appendix H page 291: Compare a 30ft run. (30ft of 3/8 holds .1473gal.) (3ft of 1/2 holds .0276 gal- less than 1/5 the volume of water) (remember the loop brings the tank nearly to the fixture)
Big Deal? Well think of 1/5 this way; 2 seconds versus 10 seconds waiting for example. To a spoiled American, that's a LONG TIME. (multiplied many times a day) Now pressure drop with 120degree water at 1 GPM for example: (27ft of 3/4 equals .1782) PLUS (3ft of 1/2 equals .1032) for a total of .2814ft.hd.
(30ft. of 3/8 equals 4.503 ft.hd.) Over 15X!
If I'm missing something, please enlighten me. This seems cut and dried to me. The only longterm downside I can see
is electricity to run the recirculator pump. If loop and branches are insulated well, and circ operates off timer or aquastat, operating costs should be minimal. A few extra dollars upfront isn't applicable, we're talking in the context of a better system here)
I'm not alone on this. Someone wrote an editorial on it last year in one of the big mags like JobSite or PHC.
Think about it and tell me if I'm all wet- I have been before, but I'm not afraid to be wrong if I can learn from it. Kevin0 -
OK by me!
As usual, thanks for the insight, all. I feel a lot better about my options. Most surprising to me (just from a HO perspective) I would've guessed the "expanding" type connection was inferior to the crimp type- never know until you ask!
Thanks again,
Patrick0 -
Fine with me Greg
But I think the original question has been answered anyway, and this would be the logical next question for you both. I've said all I can think of on the subject and hopefully proven my point unless someone shoots me down in flames here. Math should flush the engineer types out here to settle this thing once and for all! (I hope I'm still standing when the smoke clears. Arguing with Math makes me feel like a kid with a real big gun in his hand for the first time- nervous!) Kevin0 -
more pex opinions
As for pex here are my two cents. I like multi layer pex.(I use Viega fosta ) it behaves very similar to copper in-terms of expansion coefficient. unlike standerd pex which(in a good instal) requires careful use of pipe fastening,suspension clips and connection orientation to prevent eventual damage from this movement. Fosta will also hold a bend fairly well. The viega press fitting is very good looking and so is the fosta pipe, it has a mat silver grey appearance. Unlike uponor multi core (which behaves the same) the Viega press fitting works with both fosta or standard type pex. (special outer layer striping tool) Yes the fittings are expensive but they appear to be made a of a higher quality bronze like alloy.
One thing in favor of expansion (Pro Pex) there is probably a bit less restriction at the fitting because of the slightly larger I.D.
While I have limited practice with pro pex. I did find it a bit cumbersome especially the larger diameters which are really a bit of a work out physically. Also I'm told that the cone should be rotated during expansion to avoid creating grooves. This is a step which could easily be ignored or dismissed by a lazy installer and potentially effect the quality of the connection.
In my area pro pex(Uponor) seems to be the winner so far in terms of how broadly it's used and the number of supply houses that stock it. I realy should buy a tool just for service work. For now I'll just borrow.
Has anybody used the new uponor APR system. This looks like a very good connection. It apears to be a combination of expansion (one pass blunt expander) and compression (brass ring) that is forced (slid )by means of another tool over the connection point. While this looks superior to the expansion only plastic ring thing, I don't think it's going to take off. People are resistant to change and resent having to upgrade from something they only recently adopted.
One more in favor of Viega (which owns vanguard by the way). The copper propress system also by viega integrates nicely by means of conversion fittings. The only thing I don't like about viega ,the price of their manifolds, not quite as nice as the caleffi (I believe) made uponor manifolds and priced higher.0 -
Viega manifolds
Upcoming manifolds made of Stainless Steel will soon be available from Viega. Pricing is supposedly going to be competitive.0 -
I have the aqua with the expansion for taste in my home but considering the benifits of the natural germacidal quality of copper I am really rethinking this? No one has done any real measuring about the buildup of mold or whatever the stuff is but someone showed me a peice of tube that did in fact have some slime on the inside surface,... this is causing me some concern similar to the clear water filter craze of a few years ago! Does any one remember how the filters, because no one was changing the filter media, they were becoming more of a problem, health wise that the original problem. Yes it was because of the filters not being changed, but when I saw this slime???? And what was particully disturbing was the response from the local reps...I get that funny feeling when so many say they don't know! And when we tried to rinse the stuff out of the tube it wouldn't budge.0 -
ok Kevin
Obviously there is a higher pressure drop with a 30 ft run of 3/8" PEX compared to a 3 ft run of 1/2", thats not my point. You have 50 psi in a system, thats 50 psi throughout your entire branch and tee, and thats 50 psi to EVERY line in a manifold no matter how many turn on. Now, you turn your 20psi shower on in your branch and tee and boom pressure a noticable pressure drop to any other fixtures after it, right? Flush a toilet and it might get hot, right? with a manifold you dont see any pressure drop. sure there might be a 20 psi drop over a run with 3/8" going up two floors but its still has 30 psi to work with, what fixture wouldnt be satisfied with that amount? as for hot water response time, i made a mistake and refernced branch and tee not recirc., that does deliver faster but in case you ahvent noticed the plumbing market is price driven and having a pump running most of the time makes them shy away.
oh and i did this post without any calculators
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NAHB
yea saw them at the builders show, shiny less shipping costs and built in purge valves and bleeders is where you save. they are bigger than the brass too. 0 -
One more thing, who puts shut off valves at every fixture in the house? if you dont how do they shut it off if there is a repair needed or a leak. its a nice option for them to have thats all. i know codes say you need them at some fixtures but wouldnt you like to have the peace of mind of having a back up?.....probabaly not but i know i would.0 -
Who has a pump running?
"Most of the time"? Contractor: That circ should be on a well insulated line, run off timer or aquastat, and shouldn't have to run even a few minutes per day total. And pressure drop off the 3/4" line will be minimal.
This post isn't about what is cheapest.
It's about what is best for the customer who can afford the best system. And the price difference isn't large. Give the customer a choice, and tell him why he should spend a little more. I made a recommendation about recirc loops being quicker hot water, and the manifold guys were all over me like white on rice. Initially, a lot of claims were made in favor of manifolds, and they've boiled down to just one, less pressure drop. Even that one is arguable and negligible.
You've bought into the manifold marketing hype- some of which isn't true, and the rest of which isn't beneficial to the customer. I did the same thing with bubble foil insulation marketing hype and now I know I was just wrong.
Kevin0 -
Insulation....
How long do you think water stays hot in a well insualted pipe (copper and pex)? because if it does cool down thats where the time to get hot water goes through the roof, do you agree? a well done system with an aquastat or timer works well, but other than yours do you see good installations done with them very often?0 -
I guess it depends
There are probably various factors affecting how long the water would stay hot- how well insulated, etc...
And of course, if that water in the loop were cold, the time to get hot water would indeed go through the roof. But if the water in the loop is cold, it's not a (working) recirculating loop. (If the 4 wheel drive goes out on your truck and you get stuck, it's not 'cause 4 wheel drive is a bad idea, but because you no longer have 4 wheel drive.)
I typically set mine up with a timer. Start with a circulation before they get up, at noon, and at night. They can add or change times as they see fit. This could possibly save more electricity than an aquastat since it doesn't have to stay hot all the time if they're not home or not using it. And no, I honestly don't see most of them done "my way". Most of them are done with manablocs. The customers don't know any better, and the plumber just tells them what the manabloc dealer told him. They're not a bad system at all. But their claims of faster hot water and less waste are only true compared to the old branch system WITHOUT recirc. Kevin0 -
the right place for discussion
This is why we love the wall.
I was even surprised to see Hot Rod's favoring the crimp over the expansion fitting. I don't really know why it surprised me anyway, but it is interesting and educational to get other perspectives.
I do residential PHC work in new construction and remodel. I have a builder that I complete the plumbing, and all hydronics stuff for. I would try to also do the a/c side but his houses are 9,000 sq ft and over and I am afraid to have so many eggs in one basket, or to lock myself time-wise so much on one project. I may do only 2-3 of this size house a year. I just don't see 100ft runs of home run Vanguard as an option in so large of a house. I use a modified home run method- 3/4" uponor pex to a manifold located under a bathroom (or 2) and 1/2" to each fixture, and 1/2" recirc back to mech room. It keeps the 1/2" piping to a minimum, and I still get the benefits of a manifold in the mech room to have diff bathrooms not affected by other large consumption devices. Kind of the best of both worlds, and miles less piping in my customer's house.
Back to point, I have considered options, and decided on using all Uponor, and the expansion fitting for all the Domestic water lines. I in the ten or so years of using it have never had a leak, or blowout on a fitting that was installed properly. The few problems I have had were from damage that occurred to the barb fitting prior to assembly, or not properly assembling the fitting. Even at that I only had a handful. All were quickly resolved, and the expansion fitting is easy to remove, cut off, and do over. The only reason I do not endorse the crimp method is that it seems to me the weakest joint of the 3 choices. Over time, we know the expansion joint gets stronger, the sleeve joint has a lot of metal behind it, and the crimp ring is kind of like a permanent hose clamp. Of course I do not have nearly as many many crimp fittings in service as I do expansion, and to be honest I have never been to a service call to repair a leaking crimp fitting on modern Pex either.
In the end it is a matter of preference I guess.
Cosmo0 -
Hey folks, I'm a new poster here but have been lurking for some time, but this thread made me weigh in.
How about a recirc loop with remote manifolds? To be used in the far reaches of a home. I have seen this done and it is the best of both worlds.
I'm a builder not a plumber, but in my opinion home run, manifold systems are the way to go. Pressure equillibrium at the fixture is the biggest advantage as Kevin C stated and having redundant valves is a good thing too.
Having few or no fittings in walls and ceilings can only be a good thing. As far as friction losses, 3/8 pex with no fittings will flow as well as 1/2 copper with fittings for most practical apps. Huge runs maybe not but in that case you won' see 3/4 copper run to a lav either.
As far as recirc loops go, why doesn't anyone use occupancy sensors? You are trying to promote new tech using dinosaur controls IMO by using timers and definatly by using aquastats, nothing but btu wasters in a modern house. Scheduals are not set like that anymore.
Just my $.020 -
PEX
> First off, I'm going to guess that the biggest
> factor, once again, is a quality install, with
> brand of materials a distant second, but... All
> other things being equal, is there a pex fastener
> brand or type (crimp/"expanding") that you'd
> especially recommend or avoid? I'm getting
> estimates for extensive repiping (potable water,
> not heating) and wondered if I should be
> factoring this into the decision. I'm guessing
> most installers stick with one type, with the
> proprietary fittings, etc., and haven't heard the
> same brand mentioned twice among the guys who've
> been out so far. Thanks, Patrick
Uponor/Wirsbo has the only time tested expanded joint. 25 year WARRANTY. Find that on the competition0 -
Clarify your comment please
Could you clarify your comment. What is right then?
If someone were to use the copper ring, over pex, on a brass fittng, the ring would not come in contact with the brass fitting - nor would I think it would matter if it did. I've never heard of an issue with copper and brass.
If your talking about Viega, the crimp ring/press sleeve is stainless steel. Again, the seal would be made where the sleeve was pressed onto the pex - minimimal contact between the stainless and the brass, - just potentially on the fitting shoulder but never heard of an issue. Viega markets their brass fittings with their press sleeves - I know they will warranty their joint. Personally, I like the Viega fitting the best. Fast, easy and looks good.
The only issue I am aware of is where alumimum comes in contact with the brass. Are you drawing a distintion between brass and bronze ??
What were you referring to when you said not authorized, not warrantied, not right ?0 -
You make some good points Tom
Let's put the best controls on the recirc loop, and make the best system even better! Kevin0
This discussion has been closed.
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