Suffolk Bans Outdoor Wood-Burning \"Furnaces\"

Bob Harper

I guess we need to ban oil heat, too. Those dang things stink up my entire neighborhood! Then again, that's not as bad as barking dogs. If my neighbor doesn't shovel his fair share of the snow, can I ban him?

Be careful what you wish for. Every time you ban something or pass laws restricting someone's rights, it has a funny way cf coming back to haunt you.

Patchogue Phil_29

Suffolk Bans Outdoor Wood-Burning \"Furnaces\"

Possibly they mean boilers. Is this a big problem? Or maybe just someone inluential has a neighbor with one that they do not like?

HAUPPAUGE, N.Y. (AP) -- Suffolk County is banning outdoor wood-burning furnaces - which have gained in popularity has heating oil and natural gas prices have risen.

However Legislator Jack Eddington said the outdoor boilers create a smoke condition that can affect an entire neighborhood.

A similar bill last year was vetoed by County Executive Steve Levy. But Eddington said he worked with the county exec to make the bill more agreeable.

The bill approved by the county legislature Wednesday bans the sale and operation of any outdoor furnace by 2010.

And for the time being, existing furnaces are:

- Restricted to October 1st through May 1st;

- Can't be used within 200 feet of a school, daycare, nursing home or park;

- Can only use seasoned cord wood;

- And must have a chimney at least 15 feet high.

The law is expected to be approved by the County Executive and will take effect 180 days after being filed with the State.

ALH_4

Wood Burning

I assume that those drafting legislation are familiar with the operation and differences of design of wood burning "furnaces". :-?

DanHolohan

My guess

is that they're talking about fire pits.

Patchogue Phil_29

Fire pit?

Makes me picture just a hole in the ground with a fire in it. Do you mean those chimineas (spelling?) that people put on their deck (looks like a giant gourd or bottle) ?

I figure they mean outdoor woodburning boilers.... the deck warmers wouldn't be popular because of fuel price risings. "Furnace" kinda implies something to help heat inside the home instead of oil or gas fuel.

Not sure how either is much different than having a wood burning fireplace/stove in your house. Exept that the chimney is way up higher so the smoke is not at ground level.

DanHolohan

Yes,

we have one in our yard and I use it all summer long. Baseball on the radio, a fire in the pit, a beer in hand.

Gosh, I hope this doesn't spread to Nassau.

Mad Dog_2

Heard about this about a year ago and heard it had gone thru

I guess it is now. I do think they mean outdoor wood boilers, and I don't like it. I can see the wisdom where house are tight though. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

My new neighbot a city firemen Burns his year round

I happen to love the smelll,,,reminds me of "upstate" Mt Russian comrades next store do ALL their BBQ on a outdoor wood stove.....Some neighbors HAVE called to FD though. Don't worry Dan, I do think it is Wood boilers which do kick out mega amounts of smoke. Where would they stop? No BBQs next? Yes, some would have it that way. Mad Dog

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realolman

I think they should be banned

three of them stink up the whole valley for about three miles on my way to work.


What I'm talking about are outdoor boilers. No one should have to put up with that from his neighbor.


Thank God no one has one near me. I'd have to put up some kind of complaint.

What I think is odd is that two people who have them, told me on two separate occasions... "I can burn a whole deer in them"... like that was some sort of a good thing... what kinda nonsense is that.

I think the whole concept is just stupid, besides being unhealthy.

Patchogue Phil_29

I am puzzled

What is it about an outdoor boiler that makes it smell bad?

hr

They burn inefficiently

about 40% at best, under lab conditions.

Now start burning trash, green wood, wet wood, utility poles, old tires, etc and you get the pictures

Very little heat, mega smoke and dirty emissions.

The EPA just posted an emission standard for wood burners check it out here at the site shown below.

So far it is a volunteer standard, but some areas are already starting to ban dirty burners.

Plenty of good info at woodheat.org also.

http://www.epa.gov/woodheaters/

hot rod

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Eric Johnson

Inappropriate siting

Unlike woodstoves, wood-fired boilers, furnaces and other central heating appliances are not regulated by the EPA, so like hot rod said, they make a lot of smoke even under fairly ideal conditions. It wasn't a problem when they were installed out in the country by people who had an abundance of free firewood and no neighbors close by to be bothered by the smoke. Put one downwind of your house or farm, and get cheap to free heat.

Unfortunately, they're currently being sold and installed in populated areas by people who don't have a source of dry wood and who all-too-often seem oblivious to their impact on the neighborhood. Some cop an attitude when asked to do something about the smoke, and that gives all wood-burners a bad name.

In addition to hot rod's links, there's a nice group of progressive wood burners at hearth.com who have a perspective on the issue.

Patchogue Phil_29

Trying to understand

I do not know much about outside woodburning boilers.

OK, provided you burn dry wood suitable for woodburning stoves/fireplaces (i.e. no green wood, no pine, no pressure treated, no painted scraps, no garbage, no tires, no deer carcasses).... would an outdoor woodfire boiler still smell bad or make more pollution than an inside fireplace/stove?

Perry_3

For people with Asthma this can be a major issue

Years ago there was a requirement in certain parts of the country that only fireplaces furnaces or boilers with catalytic converters that passed certain emmission standards could be used due to the health hazards associated with wood smooke.

The outdoor furnaces are not "fireplaces" and thus exempt.

It's and issue - and a health issue for many - and I think you will see much more restrictions in the future.

Perry

hr

stick your combustion analyzer

in the flue to answer your question

From what I have learned and experienced the best way to burn an efficient solid fuled stove, boiler, furnace, etc is via the gasification process. Same for coal plants.

Virtually every wood or biomass boiler shown at ISH, and there were hundreded! were gasification.

I believe that wood or pellet burners need to be listed to be sold and installed in many European countries.

The data I see indicates low to mid 80% efficiencies for gasification boilers, or twice as efficient as many OWB's.

My first hand experience showed a 50% reduction in wood use when I switched to a gasification wood boiler.

Oddly enough years ago we had clean burning wood stoves. Rembember the Earth Stove? Many wood stoves used cataylic cobverters to clean up the emissions. May be we need to re-examine that techonlogy.

Although I'd rather that secondary burn INSIDE the boiler to better recapture the energy before it hits the chimney.

Burn 'em hot if yiu got 'em.

hot rod

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Eric Johnson

yes

The short answer is "yes." Modern woodstoves (not fireplaces, which are also big polluters) are designed to burn off the smoke and other gasses for greater efficiency and much lower emissions. Some use catalytic elements, while others have special secondary burn chambers to do essentially the same job. It's tougher with boilers, because the water jacket doesn't allow enough heat in the firebox for catalytic combustors or secondary burn schemes to work very well. Downdraft gasification does work well in boilers, however, but very few OWBs currently use gasification technology. For one thing, you need consistently dry wood to make a gasifier work right.

The only reason that woodstove manufacturers came up with cleaner, more efficient designs is that they were forced into it by the EPA. For some reason, the same rules and regs did not apply to central heating appliances. But that will probably change, thanks in part to the "big stink" being raised about OWBs.

Dry wood seems to be the key. Anyone who has ever heated with wood knows that keeping an adequate supply of dry wood on hand can be a challenge. Heck, heating with wood is a challenge, but one that some of us enjoy.

Unknown

in the dark

I'm in the dark what's gasification? Is it like a afterburner or air blower injection? Knowily I will get answers from the fellow wallies.... Thanks

woodburner

Read This:

http://www.sawmillmag.com/

Open "Feature Article" "In Search of Standards"

Its one of them pdf files.

ps- whats with having to type that funny little passwork thingy in to post?, aint seen that before....

Eric Johnson

no pdf

This explains it better than I ever could. No Adobe Acrobat needed:

http://www.tarmusa.com/wood-gasification-info.asp

Unknown

Thanks Eric !

Thanks for the info... Now my hat is alittle tighter with new information or its time for me to get a haircut..

Solarstar

Link to wood boiler eff report

Awhile back I think someone posted a link or PDF file location for the report of testing on the Outdoor wood boiler efficiencies. Can someone repost so I can find it...Thanks Paul

Bob Harper

HPBA.org

If you contact the Hearth, Patio, and BBQ Assn, they have people working closely on this.

This sort of legislation, which is typical of New England ( not well thought out or investigated) is dangerous. How do you define "seasoned" fireword? How do you define "firewood"? I'm serious. People burn anything. If I burn old pallets in an outdoor boiler, amd I exempt? What about biomass fuels? If I use my moisture meter on my wood, what is an acceptable range, do I take an average, and what are the specs. of the test equipment? Temperature compensated analyzer or just wing it myself?

Yes, these boilers produce tons of heavy smoke that seems to blanket some entire neighborhoods. However, panic legislation is never the way to go.

Patchogue Phil_29

clickable link

Thanks for the info. Here's a clickable link.

http://www.tarmusa.com/wood-gasification-info.asp

realolman

It would be easier to

Just ban them without trying to create exemptions.

.

I am at the head of the line for personal property rights and not having government interference, but whatever you do... be it music, noise, smoke, stink or whatever... has to stop at your property line.

You'd think someone would be embarrassed or have a little more consideration for his neighbors, than to be spewing smoke like that. If not, I guess somebody has to legislate some consideration for them.

Tim P._2

Doesn't seem right to me.

Outdoor boilers are an appliance and therefore not subject to permitting requirements. NYS DOS has already issued this interpretation.

I think if the county wanted to ban them it would be a more restrictive local requirement, which would have to be approved by the state before it could be legally enforced. I could be wrong.

However, just because you have an outdoor boiler does not mean you have the right to burn whatever you want. As soon as you disturb your neighbors, you are violating the law and are subject to ticketing.

Seems to me they are just going to ban them because it is easier then sending somebeody over there to ticket them for burning tires/green wood/etc in their boiler.

Tim

hr

there woiuld be no need to ban or pass

laws regulating them IF the owner operators followed the instructions

If an OWF owner choses, against the manuals instructions, to burn garbage, wet wood, old diapers, etc. And he lives up wind of other folks sensitive to pollution, and foul odor, that's where it gets messy.

The folks that operate their stoves in that manner generally don't take advice or requests from neighbors very well.

It's two issues really.

The stoves could certainly be made to burn more efficiently, although the cost would go up, possibly considerably

The second being operator error.

The manufactures could address the first issue, but....

hot rod



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realolman

Nobody's oil burner belches smoke even close to what those things do.


The snow thing... I have no opinion.



Someone who doesn't go out and shut up his dog sould be fined... or even better... tied beside his dog, under the same conditions. I lived beside a moron whose dog barked every night for 10 years. How inconsiderate, and obnoxious should a person be allowed to get before there needs to be an intervention?


What I wish for is for others to respect my rights as well as I respect theirs. I'm not making noise, or a stink on their property.


Whatever you do has to stop at your property line... As long as what you do stays in your property line and doesn't effect me, I don't care what you do.

S Ebels

Manufacturers are part of the problem

I have seen operator manuals that state "our unit will even burn green wood". DUH!

Well of course it will. Pretty much any OWB will digest green wood once a fire is established. The under fire forced draft most of these units employ will burn about anything. The question becomes one of efficiency. How much energy is wasted burning off the excess moisture content instead of putting the heat in the water? That's what they don't tell you.

Just another one of a long line of wild claims I've seen from the majority of these manufacturers. 85% efficiency???? When pigs fly!!

Paul C._3

We just bought our wood burning furnace / stove!

We just finished building our new home & spent $10,000.00 setting up our out door wood burning stove / furnace!! It works like a dream! We have radiant heat flooring throughout the house & it doesn't cost us a dime to heat anything. We have a large house (7000SF) & couldn't possibly afford to live here if we had to heat it from our oil furnace!!! This law is very upsetting to us & I don't know what we are going to do. We live on 3 acres in a fairly rural wooded setting in Suffolk County. We researched the stove & read that it was more enviornmentally friendly than burning fossil fuels.Any ideas? Are they going to reimburse us for all the money we invested? Will they pay our heating bill or will we be forced to sell our new home.?!

Mad Dog_2

Yes, Phil the fire is usually larger

and more intense....think about it...its not about aesthetics or a little supplemental btus, these puppies ARE the heat fot the home or bldg. I think it comes down to the same old story of urbanization encroaching on rural life and THAT I do not care for. It reminds me of people who move next to a school and then complain when kids cut across their lawn everyday; people who move to the woods and then complain about Deer Hunting that their neighbors have done for hundreds of years; and the folks who buy next to a farm only to complain that the Rhode Island Red wakes them very morning at 4:30am. Then there is the reality of the situation: When houses are close, there must be restictions, perhaps 1-2 acre minimums. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

The big question is.........................................

Was it all installed prior to the passage of the law AND did you get permits for it AND a C. of O. IF you did, you will likely be able to leave it. If not, you will face an uphill battle. Was this installed by a Professional? You could always wait and see what happens; it is usually nosy neighbors that call the town. Keep us posted. Mad Dog

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realolman

I don't think it's right

to insinuate that the neighbors are the one's who are unreasonable or at fault with the phrase "nosy neighbors".


There is a reason that these things are being banned... they smoke and they stink. It is the neighbors who are forced to breathe that stink.


By the way, the neighbors may not be that crazy about hearing a chainsaw running either. Kinda like a wave runner on the beach or a lake...Everyone else's peace is ruined for one person's benefit.

You ask if the county will compensate you for your expenses. Will you compensate the neighbors for the loss of of the full enjoyment of their home or the loss of their health ?


Even if it was possible to heat a 7000 sf house from a 3 acre lot without spending a dime ( which I doubt ), that is not the reason they are being banned.

realolman

I don't like urbanization

encroaching on rural life either.

The problem is I can't afford to buy a hundred acres and build a house in the middle of it. God, I wish I could.

Kids should be taught to respect other people's property... not to regard property owners with contempt because the property owners have to try to teach the kids to respect their property.

Deer hunters walk through my yard, less than 100 feet from my house. Honest to God, they have stood off a drive in the edge of my yard. Come on now... what deer hunter doesn't know better than that? That's the reason people don't like deer hunters. What do I care if someone goes hunting a half mile or more in the woods? The problem is... they don't want to go in the woods... that's too much effort... they want to go in my yard, hunt off of four wheelers, and road hunt up and down the public road in front of my house.


How many people have enough property on which to to run a four wheeler? How many four wheelers are sold? They buy the loudest d@%n thing they can find, and run it up and down in front of my house on the public road as fast as it will go, constantly on every nice day. Hey folks... who doesn't know that's illegal? I have lived in a rural area all my life... this is my home...how about some consideration for me? I suppose if I call the cops, I'm the one who's unreasonable, huh?

Leo

I see them

I see them smoking 24/7. I have to wonder how many people using these burners spewing all that smoke care nothing about the rights of people who smoke. Is there really any difference? People only follow what suits them in this day and age.

I have a neighbor two houses away who uses a conventional wood stove. In the fall I have searched my house for the source of the smoke smell fearing a fire. It took a while living here to figure it out. This is a very old congested neighborhood I live in.

Leo

Mad Dog_2

Yep, I think your'e correct Tim

The feel-good approach...meanwhile folks dump ALL kinds of stuff down their drains and oil in the catchbasin. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Don't be so touchy Realolman........

Just stating my experiences. Obviously, you have issues with YOUR neighbors over the smoke. Just a question...were they there before you lived there? Mad Dog

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Kevin Pulver

Good gun story Mad Dog

I saw it in the dentist office. It was the cover of "Newsweek" or something from about Jan or Feb 2007.
Wish I had it, I'd send you a copy. Anyway,you can't miss it- it will have a couple skanky looking young women on the cover named Britney and Paris. (I'm not being nasty, they look ROUGH) Anyway, the article is written by a liberal woman who finally bought a shotgun to execute a cardinal after two maddening years of the thing attacking his reflection in the windows of her solar home.
She says to the gun-store owner. "I suppose you don't get too many liberal women in here." and he says, "You'd be surprised. A gun is only evil until you need one!"
It was a great article. You'd enjoy it. Kevin

Mad Dog_2

NO! I don't think you are unreasonable........................

However, I find that you are VERY frustrated with the dopes living around you and If I were YOU, I would take some action on the tresspassing. Mutual firepower and a calm demeanor (Theo Roosevelt: "speak softly and carry a big stick and use when you have to.") Make MOST problems just...GO AWAY. Is it the Smoke from the wood boilers OR the just general Lack of neighborly respect that is bothering you most? Look, You are talking with someone who does not care for quite a few of his neighbors. I agree that all too many peolpe to-day are all out for themselves and VERY inconsiderate. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

You are correct, Kevin................................

Even the most virulent anti-gun folk....will BEG AND WISH
they had a loaded firearm when they hear the footsteps downstairs....they are half asleep.,. Fritz The German Shepard died last year.and OH MY
the phone ain't workin, honey........ Mad dog

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Mad Dog_2

Yeah Bob,,,,,,I think his pickup is burnin dirty

lets call the gestapo and have it siezed! Scary! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

\"Stop at the property line.....\"

Ha! You should try living down here in Long Island...houses VERY close......the house next to mom's was 7'!!!!!! away from us. The ONLY thing that truly works or deters RUDE people is payin them back..on THEIR terms. Maybe YOU need to get an OWB and smoke them out....then they might understand. Mad Dog

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