What has happened???

Kevin Blair

I am in Buffalo New York...a wonderful city.

Kevin Blair

Last night something went very wrong with our one pipe steam heating system.

A bit of history:
We bought this double (2 apartments) in November and then discovered that we had one pipe steam and not hot water.

At first nothing seemed to work, then we found this sight, bought the book and eventually replaced all of the vents in both apartments. The mains in the basement seemed to work fine, but I planned to replace them before next winter.

Everything started to work, perfect, quiet heat in all rooms; no banging, no problems, until last night.

Suddenly the two radiators closest to the boiler in the upper (where we live) started to act up. Steam and hissing coming from the vents in those radiators and all of the other radiators went cold. I replaced the vents in both radiators, but continued to hear banging and hammering. I gave up for the night and then around 4 am; the dinning room radiator was making such noise I woke up and went to investigate (this is the radiator I believe to be closest to the boiler and also closest to the thermostat). The vent was spewing water! I had to clean up the floor.

I put a new vent into that radiator, but it didn't seem to help. Since then I have swapped vents, replaced 4 of the vents, called the vent manufacturer (Vari-Valve) and tried everything I can think of and there is no improvement. The 2 radiators continue to hiss and vent and sometimes spew, along with banging such as we haven't heard since we replaced all of the vents months ago. If I shut down one of the 2 radiators, then the next one in the chain (Bathroom) comes to life, but acts just like the other 2.

Can anyone help me figure this out? What do I need to do?

bill nye_3

Did you

Did you overfill the boiler? It would seem that you have water in the system.

ttekushan_3

Just dealt with that today, too

Wierd.

A one pipe system in and apartment building I serviced in the Fall started to do just that a couple of days ago. I got a call this morning with EXACTLY the symptoms you describe. I told him the likely scenario: either the auto fill is leaking or the manual fill is leaking. I correctly guessed an overfilled boiler over the phone.

But nothing was leaking to cause an overfilled condition. The water line was bouncing violently, with water filling the site glass from its top fitting. Somehow or another, the boiler water became horribly contaminated. I have no idea where it could have come from, as no repairs have been done to the system this year.

What happens is that the water's surface becomes contaminated with an oily substance, and the water lifts off with the steam. Every time the bounce reaches its low point, the water feeder (the non-electronic type, anyway) momentarily feed water in. If the contamination is severe enough, this will continue to happen until the water has worked its way into areas where only steam should travel. As you may know, steam and water often have a very violent relationship!

I had to skim the darn thing, and give it a bit of a surface blow off until all was calm.

I have no idea where the contaminants originated, but it started a couple of days ago reaching its worst last night. I guess no one in the building was able to sleep.

-Terry

BTW, in a pinch you can use the sight glass to skim the boiler if the skim port is plugged. Close the lower valve, leaving the upper one open. Open or remove the clean-out valve/plug at the bottom of the sight glass assembly. With the boiler off, fill the boiler until a trickle of water comes out. The goal is that the film on the water's surface has clear passage to the site glass piping. This only works if your sight glass piping goes straight (horizontally) into the side of the boiler. Other exterior piping arrangements prevent this method from working.

Unknown

its those

Its those O leprachans relieving themsleve before going back into the woodworks...

Kevin Blair

too much water?

The boiler fills automatically and has an automatic low water cut off; so I cannot manually overfill it.

The site glass appears to be over the maximum, to the very top actually. It is dirty and another thing that needs to be replaced soon, but we think it is too high.

I used the blow down value to empty out some water, but the site glass still seems full...could be too hard to read becuae it is dirty.

What else can I do?

Unknown

Kevin, when was the

When was the last time the boiler have been skimmed? Regularly blowing down the low water cut off is commendable...however, adding water can have some reactions and need to be skimmed... What brand boiler you have and where are you located? Disregard my previous post....

Kevin Blair

too much water

The boiler is a Weil-McLain.

I used the blow down to empty 6-7 buckets (I think the buckets holds 4 gallons); so a lot of water.

At first the site glass was so full we couldn't tell anything. After 2-3 buckets you could see a water line in the site glass, but well above the max line. We kept going until the water line on the site glass was about 1/2" above the bottom of the site glass. There is a sticker that states 1/4" is the minimum.

There is a green box that is an automatic water shut off. The red light on the box came on when we filled the last bucket. It has stayed on and the boiler has not yet refilled and started.

The radiators continue to hiss a bit, but otherwise all is quiet.

I hope I did this correctly. What may have caused the too much water problem and how do I prevent it? I am not clear on the skimming as mentioned in the posts?

I appreciate the help from everyone and now wonder what I do next?

Kevin

Unknown

ahh Buffalo

Buffalo, where they invented the wings and b-box..... Weil Mclain is a good boiler and they have 1 1/2 " opening on the left side for skimming... LAOSH book will explain how the skimming process work, however, its best to get a real boiler PRO to do it for you as well get the low water cut off tested with a broken union test.... Still trying to figure after reading your first post, how did the "hot water system" becomes steam system when you brought the home?

Kevin Blair

evrything is working but...

After taking the water level down until the low water shut off kicked in, the boiler then refilled and the burner came on and everything started to work properly, except the bathroom radiator. I suspect I need to replace the vent as a lot of water came pouring out of it last night.

Why did the boiler overfill with water? How do I prevent it from happening again?

As for the question about hot water turning into steam...realitors! is the answer. We are still negotiating with attorneys regarding why we weren't clearly told about the heating system and the challenges we were about to face.

I have to say that when it runs properly, the system is actually quite nice; but when something goes wrong it is difficult to fix becuase we haven't found a repair person who actually knows and understands these one pipe sytems.

Unknown

Kevin

Is there any way you could post a few pics of the boiler showing exactly where this control is located? Do you have any idea of its age? A steam system,(as you well know), can be very temperamental by times. A pic is worth a 1000 words to us.

Dave

Blrmech65

Check to see if there is a High vent on the Return piping.
I had a sysstem doing the same thing once and it turned out there was a vent on the return stuffed way up in the floorboards..

Dave_4

steam Vs water

Kevin,
A simple mistake was made in describing the type of system - most likley because as you stated, there are not many people familiar with the system/differences.

In reading into your message about this mistake and an on going negotiation with an attorney, watch out they don't CHARGE YOU MORE for the one pipe steam.

Really, you are not at any loss in having an old steam system Vs an old hot water system.

Choose your battles carefully.

Kevin Blair

Pictures and info

So far everything is once again working perfectly.

I am attaching 3 pictures of this boiler that I hope can help shed some light on what happened and why.

There are 2 main vents that I can find on this unit, but I don't see any others, Both main vents are Vent-Rite No. 77.

Regarding the attorney; there are a few issues with this house, only one of which is the heating system. The essential thing is that we were told everything worked fine, but it doesn't. We have spent just under $1,000.00 so far and I still need to have both boilers professionally cleaned and to replace 6 main vents total (4 on the lower boiler and 2 on the upper); so I figure almost $500.00 for the main vents and I am not sure how much for the cleaning. It is these costs that we are trying to recover.

Unknown

the pictures help

From those pictures, can't see the whole boiler piping and hartford loop, etc... However, the good news is that you do have a short nipple on the left side of the boiler is used for skimming purpose...
Now, with the electronic low water cutoff, I'm not a big fan but use it as a secondary cut off while I use the float type as a primary one... I see you have some stickers on front of boiler, any phone calls to them for a real boiler pro? Wondering if you had a home inspector and didint know the difference between furance, steam or hot water?

William Faust

Leprechan joke

This Irish-American guy finally decides to go visit Ireland. He is amazed at the beauty of the country and the friendliness of the people. One day he decides to go hiking on back country roads. After a couple of hours, he walks into a field and takes a nap beside a tree. Suddenly, he awakes to find a wee man dressed in green with buckles on his hat and boots. He says, "No - it can't be!"

The wee man says, "Aye, laddie, that I am. I am a Leprechan! And you have three wishes for seeing me while I wasn't careful. Fame, fortune, ladies - what will it be?"

The man says, "How about all three?"

The wee man says, "Right away for sure, but there's a tiny catch here. I'm a horny little **** and I fancy buggering you. Will you grant my wish so that I can grant yours?"

The man is totally repulsed by the thought. After a bit of reflection, however, he decides that momentary unpleasantness would be worth it.

Just as the wee man finishes his business, he whispers in the ear of the man, "Say, laddie, aren't you a wee bit old to be believing in Leprechans?"

Moral of the story: If it seems too good to be true...

ttekushan_3

Maybe in your case

there's not an overfill due to contamination. I my previous post I mentioned mechanical types of automatic fill units. Electronically controlled water fill devices like the one used here (Unimatch) have a built in delay. This shouldn't happen with this type unless the fill valve sticks.

The problem could be related to the way the valve is mounted on the pipe. The instructions (page 3) clearly state:

"3c. Unit must be installed in a horizontal pipe in an upright position."

Attached are the installation instructions.

-Terry

Unknown

Steam Trains

Dave

Steamhead (in transit)

Flooding Boilers

I see by your pictures that you have an older model Hydrolevel LWCO on your boiler. These seem to be electro-mechanical rather that all electronic. We have noted in the past year at least two of these units where they have intermittently stuck open and signaled the feeder to feed and feed and...flood.

Most manufacturers recommend that the LWCO be replaced after ten years of service. Yours may be due for replacement for this reason alone.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave_4

auto fill

Kevin,

Why did it overfill? We need some clues...

You stated that you drained 6-7 buckets and let the auto fill operate. Question: To what level did the auto fill feed - that is, what was the sight glass level when it shut off? If it feeds quickly it can overshoot a bit. You can slow the feed rate by adjusting the water valve on that line.
A second question: When you are making steam, is the level in the sight glass moving up and down more than +- 1/2"??

Final question. WHen you are making steam for an extended period, does the water level drop to where it might admit more water?

Kevin Blair

responses

I watched the boiler for a while that night and have watched it subsequently for a bit and have observed the following: When it kicked back on the sight glass filled to about 2/3 high. When making steam it bounces a bit, but not more +- 1/2". I haven't seen the boiler water level drop to the point where the LWCO kicks on. Each time I check the sight glass (which is 3-4 times a day right now as I am still nervous about it happening again) it is between 1/2 and 2/3 high.

It has been running well since I drained the water. I am inclined to the think that something stuck open. As the previous owners aged, I think a lot of maintenance got deferred and the the idea that some parts need to be replaced makes sense. I am asking someone to come out and give me an estimate on cleaning both boilers. I bet it has been years since it was done.

I really apprecaite all of the help! Thanks guys!

Kevin Blair

Thanks! My sense is that something sticking is likely. I am trying to get a pro out to look at things. Trying to assess whether the unit was installed correctly is getting in a bit over my head, but I will read the manual and see what the pro says when I can find one to come out and look.

BTW, the auto feed is installed the same way on both boilers.

I have tried the stickers on the front of the boiler, but the one place is no longer in business and I didn't like some of the answers from the other. I am still looking for a pro in the Buffalo area that I can confidently use. I have a new recommendation that I am planning to try tomorrow.

Dave_4

full steam ahead

Sounds like things are under control Kevin. I agree with your thinking that something stuck and it very well could have been a one time overfill from the auto feed. Now that you are aware of this you can kep an eye on it, which you should do.

The slight water level bounce is normal. If it bounces more than that, it could be from oil/contaminates in the water. SKimming the water from the surface cures that typically.

Good luck and enjoy your heat.

Heaton626

overfill

our 2-yr old weil mclain did the very same thing this winter, but we do not have automatic water feed. we kept asking each other if they had put water in the boiler and kept taking buckets of water out. We have finally decided that there is a boiler geist in our basement--no other explanation. The water line has two valves which you have to open to fill boiler.