Heat-Timer Question

Unknown

Got a look at the boiler room today. Controller is an EPC, which from what I could see, looks a lot like an EPU in appearance. Could not find any data for the EPC on the Heat-timer web site. What are the differences, if any?

Boiler is a steel fire tube, 2.5 million BTU/Hr, oil or gas fired depending on what is cheapest. There is no outdoor reset, only a manual aquastat presently set at 190F. The maimtenance guys say they do lower the limit setting in warmer weather. There is no mixing valve, just timed circulation controlled by the EPC controller. Indoor temp sensing is done on the return line where it enters the boiler room.

The EPC is presently set at the "G" heat setting, which probably explains the overheating at warmer outdoor temps since according to the chart the circulators are running 30 min out of each hour with 190F water. I suggested lowering the setting when the weather warms up a little. This morning it was 20F outside, so not really a good day to try reducing the setting as indoor temp was just about right.

Unknown

Any of you guys familiar with the operation of the older Heat-Timer systems?

A relative of mine lives in an older co-op complex built in the 1950's. Hot water heating system with fin tube recessed convectors. Problem seems to be that room temp does not track outside temp. At 15F outside, indoor temp will be 65F, at 45F outside it goes over 80F, and everyone starts to open windows. I spoke to the super about this and he says thats just the way it works! Doesnt sound reasonable to me. He mentioned that there were several curve settings (A,B,C,etc) and he sometimes changed them depending on the weather.

I'm not really familiar with the details of this Heat-Timer controller, but I believe it sets circulator run time depending on outdoor temp. Seems that circulators don't run too often, maybe once every hour or two, and it doesnt make much difference what the outdoor temp is. Because of the infrequent circulation, there are large indoor temp swings.

Is this the way the system is really supposed to work? I would think there would be more modulation of circulation time according to outside temp. Since the super thinks its working properly, its pretty difficult to have him get someone knowlegeable to look at it.

Is there any documentation available on the older Heat-Timers? I checked their website but could not find any technical manuals or other documentation.

JohnNY

Heat timer

There is a calibration screw on the bottom left that needs attention once in a while, but keep in mind the panels "go bad" over time.
Also the outdoor temperature sensor, called a weatherhead, can be tested for accuracy.

If people are opening windows then something needs to be done quickly.

You are right to be concerned.

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Unknown

To the best of my knowledge Heat Timers require constant circulation to operate correctly. If the system is not circulating it can't get a true reading on the loop temp. That might explain the erratic operation.

steven E.HEAT

if the controller is that old, retire it . Fuel is too expensive. Tekmar is the way wmultiple indoor sense. and heat curve shift capabilities and out door reset.

Paul_11

repair or replacce

Old Heat-Timers don't work real well.

I would hire a competent contractor to look it over and determine if it is out of adjustment or broken and needs to be replaced.
If it is out of adjustment it won't cost much to adjust it.
If it is broken, you will need to replace it and you may want to consider a four way mixing valve.

From reading your description, it sounds like you don't have a mixing valve now, which would save you approximately 35% of your current heating bills and make it much more comfortable in the building.
If you did need to replace it, I would reccomend installing a Tekmar control.

Good Luck,

Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

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Long Beach Ed

Tekmar is the Way

Heat-Timer hasn't kept up with the times; their service and customer care is just awful.

Tekmar makes fine equipment and they will talk with you. Look at their equipment. It's great and will quickly pay for itself.

A mixing valve setup is by far the way to go. Again something that will give you dividends.

Unknown

If it was up to me, I would have had the system upgraded years ago. Unfortunately, such decisions are in the hands of the super and property manager, both of whom think everything works just fine as long as no one complains that it is too cold in their apartment. The co-op board follows their opinions, so nothing gets done. I mentioned to some of the board members that they could save considerably on fuel and increase comfort by upgrading the control, but they just dont get it!

From what I have seen of the system, there is no mixing valve, the boiler just maintains temperature and the circulators cycle on and off under the control of the Heat-Timer control. This is definitely part of the problem, since you dont need to circulate 180F water when its 50 degrees outside!

Steamhead (in transit)

It definitely needs upgrading

there's absolutely no reason to keep that boiler at 180 degrees all the time. The standby losses are incredible.

Constant circulation with varying water temps under control of the Tekmar is the way to go.

If the boiler also provides the building's domestic hot water supply, there are Tekmars that will control that too.

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D107

We had 1970s heat timer

with a steam system. (HO here) One problem was the location of the return element. (a few inches above the water line on the return.) It did not cool down in the same ratio as the rest of the building. So the colder it got, the heat would go on for longer cycles, and the warmer the return stayed, and so it wouldn't call for heat often enough.

We ended up gerry-rigging a solution by keepin a nearby window open a crack to parallel outside conditions. Then to fine-tune THAT we then lightly wrapped the return element and pipe to slightly minimize the effects of the open window. Surprisingly that Laurel and Hardy scheme worked well, but obviously not optimum. Nobody wanted to spend money in our case either.

There was an old guy there at Heat Timer who was an expert at coming up with special boost buttons and other tricks. Don't know if he's still there but they may be able to help you troubleshoot this and isolate where the problem is.

Of course you might sell the idea of a new system by telling them how little it would cost per apartment, and how quickly you'd get return on investment.

Good luck,

David

oil-2-4-6-gas

i'm not going to argue that Heat Timer is better than Tekmar-- have any of you guys used the Platinum series -digital -Heat-Timers? i have put in a few of them recently -these are the new 1's there isn't even any info on their website about them as of yet - any way i've worked on a Lot of Heat-Timers ( old E, EPU,EPU-CH,EPC,MPC,MPC gold,HWR,SWR) most problems are from the install --#1 the panels need to be grounded #2 the sensors need #18 shielded wire system needs to be balanced (Most are so far off it doesn"t matter what controls you have ) and sensors -location-location-location --oh yeah location - the outdoor sensor needs to be calibrated -the indoor sensor/sensors need to be in the correct location and calibrated

Unknown

Have you ever seen an EPU type controller used for a hot water system? This seems to be the type in the system I am describing, judging from the one hour heating cycles and the super's changing the A, B, C settings. How well would you expect it to work in a HW application?

oil-2-4-6-gas

the EPU is for steam at least that is the only application i have seen or installed them in --if its hot water it should be an HWR with a proportioning 3-way valve ,pump relay and heating reset curve -setback cycles and mourning boost --to answer your question though on the HWR the reset curves are designated as A,B,C, --the Honeywell aquatrol would be a numbered curve 1.1,2.1,3.1

Unknown

A little more info

Got a look at the boiler room today. Controller is an EPC, which from what I could see, looks a lot like an EPU in appearance. Could not find any data for the EPC on the Heat-timer web site. What are the differences, if any?

Boiler is a steel fire tube, 2.5 million BTU/Hr, oil or gas fired depending on what is cheapest. There is no outdoor reset, only a manual aquastat presently set at 190F. The maintenance guys say they do lower the limit setting in warmer weather. There is no mixing valve, just timed circulation controlled by the EPC controller. Indoor temp sensing is done on the return line where it enters the boiler room.

The EPC is presently set at the "G" heat setting, which probably explains the overheating at warmer outdoor temps since according to the chart at 50F outside, the circulators are running 30 min out of each hour with 190F water. I suggested lowering the setting when the weather warms up a little. This morning it was 20F outside, so not really a good day to try reducing the setting as indoor temp today was just about right.

RonWHC

Check the setting on that

system sensor on the return line. Probably a reverse aquastat. Most installers set it about 130*, or above, to assure enough heat in mild weather. You might try setting it down, a little @ a time, until the temp swings moderate. If the EPC has a 60 minute cycle dial, each lettered heat adustment setting, above A, is 4 minutes of run time. If it has a 30 minute cycle, it is 2 minutes per letter above A.

Agree w/ many above. The Heat-Timer E series is not a good water controller.

oil-2-4-6-gas

the building can save some serious money if they upgraded to a reset system --with a 3 way valve - there is a job we did a few years ago - 5" pipe cut and welded added a 3 way motorized valve,and upgraded to a reset system / (boilers have tankless coils ,so the boilers maintain 190* and the 3 way sends up what it needs)/ i think the savings was calculated at 22% the first year

Mad Dog_2

Ahhhhh YES...The members of the board...........................

and the management company....In ANY case, whether this is a small co-op, medium sized apartment building, Or Starret City, it would behoove The Board and Management to INVEST in some Late 2oth Century (at the very least)Control strategies. I agree, with the others, it is time to get a Tekmar rep down there to talk some sense at the next meeting...all you need to do is get one ear at a time: when $$$$ can be saved, people perk up. Mad Dog

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