Geo thermal source for heating radiant

Bob Bona_4

only a couple of geo jobs under my belt, but here's what I've learned. Used Climatemaster from NH. Good support.

The one I remember most was a 2500 sq ft 2 story new house, 2 600 foot vertical wells done by others. As we know, 120 degree water is the max you'll get w/o supplemental heating plants. I did the entire house in Quicktrac, and the geo water temps just made design parameters (0/68,22mph wind). It was kind of close w/o any supplement, but the homeowner was fine with maybe having to put on a sweater below design.

I installed a Vaughn 80 gallon stone lined buffer with electric backup, and a 5 ton A/H for cooling using a chiller coil. Piping was a little complex, but not too bad, as well as control strategy.

I have to admit I wasn't thrilled at the noise level from the geo unit.

Steven Gronski

Btu load sizing..........

Has anyone had any experiance with useing geothermal for supplying the heat to feed radiant heating? A few questions I have for you are the following:
(1)What is the maximum water temperature that can be supplied by the geothermal heat transfer?
(2) Is there an unlimited supply of btus obtained from geothermal, or does something, like the heat exchanger, have to be sized in the geothermal system to deliver the required btus i need to heat the home? I have never done one, and a builder I work with has a customer that wants to build a new home that is hell bent on geothermal,and i need to have some answers.I also would assume the same for the cooling aspect as well, and i will probably want to use a Unico system on the house as well.
Thanks for all your input.
Steve

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mikea23

Steven Gronski

I have used geo with radiant alot it works wonders. But when you do the radiant design you need to work with one design temp. If you can design a system with 110 deg water the system works great. Most heat pumps will produce 120 deg water but the higher the water temp the less eff the system is. But you can go up to 120 if need be.

Unico systems i dont belive will work tho unless they make chilled water units. In cooling mode the heat pump will make 45 deg water with no problem.

Get a good Heat pump Manufacturer we use Econar they are in Minnasota and work great in cold climates. They also have good customer support and will help with sizing.

Also do a good heat loss and size to heating load that way you need no backup heat source. Just remember flow rates and sizing in geo is very important there is no fudge factor in GEO so being off on calcs can be costly.

Mike A

Steven Gronski

Heat output

Hey mike,
thanks for the input. Unico does make a chilled water unit that makes 45 degree water, so I guess I would be good on the air conditioning part id i used the geo thermal source for chilled water, The radiant part though, I have no heat loss or desighn temp yet because I do not have any prints to figure the job. Most of the time, my design temps with Uponor products and there program for the radiant desighn, put me under a 120 degrees. I want to know if the heat out put on geothermal is an endless supply of 120 degree water, or is there some kind of btu out put max capacity?
Thanks again
Steve

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mikea23

Steven

Yes just like a boiler thats why I said size to the heat load. Pipe the heat pump into a Buffer tank and draw off the tank as needed. The heat pumps job is to satisfy the tank in heating or cooling.
Insulate well and if posible put a floor drain in Mechanical room. When in cooling mode the system condesates big time. If you would like I can set you up with afew suppliers that will help with the system and have all the parts needed.

Steven Gronski

Suppliers

From what I understand............the person that is building the house, has a cousin that does the geo thermal.........and he is in I think Virginia or West Virginia.......it would be nice if I could talk to him....but I am not sure that I can at this point. So what your saying is the Geo thermal does have some kind of btu limit on what you draw the heat from, so I would have to tell the geothermal guy what my heating and cooling loads are, so he can size the geo thermal stuff and make sure he has enough wells to do it?
Steve

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mikea23

yes VERY important like i said before there is no Fudge factor in geo flow rates and well size head pres are crutial to a good system.
But if he is a geo well driller he will have the basic concept but dont trust his figures verify them yourself at the end of the day if it doesnt work your phone will ring. I would call Econar My rep is Barbra Cameron I think she covers RI as well she will give you some pointers and put you in the right direction.

Craig Bergman

Training, Training, Training

If you are considering getting into Ground Source Heat Pumps, and you should, training is a MUST!! I can not stress that point enough! Geo is a two headed beast, one being the G.S.H.P. the other is the Loop Field. They are completely different disciplines and should not be taken lightly.

When we attended the IGSHP training and certification class we immediately knew we were not going to do the Loop Field installs. If the Loop Field is not designed and installed correctly the G.S.H.P. will not operate properly.

Working with Water to Water Heat Pumps requires attention to details that your factory training will cover. Factory training, support and technical support are very important. You will rely on them a great deal. We have been installing GSHP's for seven years and our factory support is still often needed. Part of my job is service, but we've not had many calls for GSHP service in seven years, when we do get a call Tech Support saves my back side!

So again...Training, Training, Training!!!

Bergy

Craig Bergman

Training, Training, Training

If you are considering getting into Ground Source Heat Pumps, and you should, training is a MUST!! I can not stress that point enough! Geo is a two headed beast, one being the G.S.H.P. the other is the Loop Field. They are completely different disciplines and should not be taken lightly.

When we attended the IGSHP training and certification class we immediately knew we were not going to do the Loop Field installs. If the Loop Field is not designed and installed correctly the G.S.H.P. will not operate properly.

Working with Water to Water Heat Pumps requires attention to details that your factory training will cover. Factory training, support and technical support are very important. You will rely on them a great deal. We have been installing GSHP's for seven years and our factory support is still often needed. Part of my job is service, but we've not had many calls for GSHP service in seven years, when we do get a call Tech Support saves my back side! We use GeoComfort products( www.geocomfort.com )manufactured by WFI. Their staff is the BEST!!!

So again...Training, Training, Training!!!

Bergy

Craig Bergman

Training, Training, Training

> Has anyone had any experiance with useing

> geothermal for supplying the heat to feed radiant

> heating? A few questions I have for you are the

> following: (1)What is the maximum water

> temperature that can be supplied by the

> geothermal heat transfer? (2) Is there an

> unlimited supply of btus obtained from

> geothermal, or does something, like the heat

> exchanger, have to be sized in the geothermal

> system to deliver the required btus i need to

> heat the home? I have never done one, and a

> builder I work with has a customer that wants to

> build a new home that is hell bent on

> geothermal,and i need to have some answers.I also

> would assume the same for the cooling aspect as

> well, and i will probably want to use a Unico

> system on the house as well. Thanks for all your

> input. Steve

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 424&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



If you are considering getting into Ground Source Heat Pumps, and you should, training is a MUST!! I can not stress that point enough! Geo is a two headed beast, one being the G.S.H.P. the other is the Loop Field. They are completely different disciplines and should not be taken lightly.

When we attended the IGSHP training and certification class we immediately knew we were not going to do the Loop Field installs. If the Loop Field is not designed and installed correctly the G.S.H.P. will not operate properly.

Working with Water to Water Heat Pumps requires attention to details that your factory training will cover. Factory training, support and technical support are very important. You will rely on them a great deal. We have been installing GSHP's for seven years and our factory support is still often needed. Part of my job is service, but we've not had many calls for GSHP service in seven years, when we do get a call Tech Support saves my back side! We use GeoComfort products( www.geocomfort.com )manufactured by WFI. Their staff is the BEST!!!

So again...Training, Training, Training!!!

Bergy

Craig Bergman

Training, Training, Training

If you are considering getting into Ground Source Heat Pumps, and you should, training is a MUST!! I can not stress that point enough! Geo is a two headed beast, one being the G.S.H.P. the other is the Loop Field. They are completely different disciplines and should not be taken lightly.

When we attended the IGSHP training and certification class we immediately knew we were not going to do the Loop Field installs. If the Loop Field is not designed and installed correctly the G.S.H.P. will not operate properly.

Working with Water to Water Heat Pumps requires attention to details that your factory training will cover. Factory training, support and technical support are very important. You will rely on them a great deal. We have been installing GSHP's for seven years and our factory support is still often needed. Part of my job is service, but we've not had many calls for GSHP service in seven years, when we do get a call Tech Support saves my back side! We use GeoComfort products( www.geocomfort.com )manufactured by WFI. Their staff is the BEST!!!

So again...Training, Training, Training!!!

Bergy

mikea23

Bergy

I cant agree more. We do the entire system inside and out but we also size EVERYTHING small mistakes in GEO costs big bucks

ALF

You have to remember, the purpose of the buffer tank is to protect the equipment, not a source of heat. This often gets confused. I am currently in the process of authoring a new manual for geothermal installations using radiant. The bottom line is, you much match the load of the house at design conditions to the output of the unit at design conditions. A five ton unit will probably not be five tons with a 30 degree loop. I am a fan of continuous circulation with an outdoor reset control. Any time you can lower the leaving water temp of a geo unit you extend the life of the unit and increase the COP. You should only need the max water temp when you are at the worst outdoor air conditions. 130 degree output is doable, but not good as a steady diet. Be real careful of floor coverings, you do not have the liberty of turning up the temp like you can with a boiler.

Craig R Bergman

Manual?

ALF

To whom will the manual be available? I'm always looking for new sources of information. After all...The more I know, the less dangerous I become!!

Bergy

ALF

It will be a WaterFurnace training document. Worst case, I can tell you how to get it. Probably won't be completed until sometime this summer.

Ted_5

That's great

new information is always good. I have a new product out of Germany that can help on loading and unloading buffer tanks. The company has 3rd party testing in Germany proving that you can get up to 50% more stored heat out of the buffer and adding up to 13% more efficiency to a geo system. Would you like to see more?

Ted

Steven Gronski

So bottem line is............

I would like to know where I can get any information, or manuals, available for Geo thermal, for radiant and cooling also, So I assume I have to give my heating and cooling loads for the house, before any well drilling,,pumps and heating exchangers are installed, or designed? Thanks for everyones input so far on this.

Steve

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mikea23

Ted

I would like to get some more information on this if you can email it to me would be great

ma02316@aol.com
thanks
Mike A