Union apprenticeship still a viable entry point?

Glen

which in my studies of labour history and my own practical experience - is a minority opinion or observation. I suggest you check your homework - or start another thread - "Unions cause GW - or - Unions responsible for sinking of the ark" - You know - something that can be supported by hard evidence. :-)

John R. Hall

Career path

I am interested in visiting the topic of how the HVAC trade can make itself more appealing to young people who prefer working in a trade rather than an office. I will be visiting New Jersey in May to sit down with some union contractors to discuss the "health" of union apprenticeship programs." I will also be doing the same here in metro Detroit. Both areas have strong roots in organized labor, something that has been disappearing from the landscape as the global market expands. Fortunately, HVAC techs and installers won't see their jobs go overseas because of the local nature of the work.

I'm curious as to whether any Wallies have an opinion on how the HVAC trade can do a better job of explaining the career path of a union apprentice and showing young people that this career can be rewarding and yes, "fun."

Ken D.

Apprentice

The biggest draw to me is money, benefits and pension. Union that is. My experience has been non union doesn't pay bad, but have very few benefits and pensions are almosr non- existent. The unions on the other hand have to do a better job of opening apprenctice spots up to interested people. Not just to relatives and people who "know somebody".

Unknown

Hey John,

the trade could always use new people, but you got me thinking so I looked up some old stuff from my Dad out of nostalgia, I wonder how far these labor rates go these days? LOL! I would assume these wages were weekly.
Edit- John, no pun intended on the "employers" last name, JJ Hall used to be a Mayor of our city who happened to own a plumbing co. too. Another funny thing is, my Dad always claimed to be born in 1912! Don`t know who type-o`d that,(if it was!)

Dave

John R. Hall

Cool

Do people still "bind themselves" to the trade? Interesting choice of words. Thanks Dave!

jackchips_2

Ken

I work for an open shop and would give a counter view to yours. We have an excellent health plan that the company contributes 60%, vacation with pay, all the major holidays with pay, a paid disability plan and a 20% unlimited match for our 401k.

That list will match up and even beat most Unions.

There is a place for all of us but the one huge difference I have seen over the years (Dad was Union)is Union employees work for the Union, open shop work for the company.

Jack

Ken D.

Jackchips

Sounds like you have a really good deal. I have worked both sides in a few different markets, and I can say while there are some good places out there, that is not the norm with Non union. That is not to say many of the Union outfits are any better. If the Union did not require the benefits be paid up front, they would never get paid. I also acknowledge most of the NU places do mostly residential.. That would be an impediment to higher labor rates considering the competition out there.

Chris_82

it dosent hurt they wont bite you have nothing to loose and everything to gain Many many independents started at the union hall, no social comments please but our vice presedent has family members in the pipe trades unions, as well as the us president of becemel and emcore as well, these are currently the largest union companies, as well as largest pipe companies in the USA

so the political commentary aside just walk in and ask

Glen

It never has gone -

out of vogue to enjoy the benefits of a union apprenticeship or training class. "Not just to relatives and people who "know somebody"." - probably fair comment - but that is the "please supply three references" phase of the application - even open shop contractors use that. For some - working union is like breathing, to others a matter of moral necessity - the UA prides itself on top shelf training. And yes we could also discuss the downside of a unionized workplace - but like Chris advises - walk in and ask, chat with folks that are in the know. As contractors we target our clients - workers should also target prospective employers or training agencies.

Bob Harper

Unions

Unions are still around but are losing favor. I think it is because the public is getting informed and guys talk to one another. There are simply too many horror stories of guys losing their jobs because of the false sense of security unions give. They see their dues going to nothing in return when they get bounced out.

Unions had their heyday but the public and working man are starting to see them as just another money grab and the workers are being asked to sell their souls to the devil. Not everyone who works in the trades is a flaming liberal. Some guys want to be able to vote their conscience. Unions have always been much stronger up North where men would sell their personal freedom for a buck. Not so down South. I think more and more men are seeing their freedom as worth more.

Yes, I was screwed by a union once many yrs. ago but have always seen them as a puppet of organized crime and liberals. I have a relative who bids out $500K + jobs and he tells me union labor is exactly double yet there is no disceranble difference in quality or completion times and actually are more of a PIA to deal with. Just calling it as I see it. You are free to your own opinions.

John, I think the main reason kids aren't entering any kind of tech school program is they are too lazy. Nobody wants to work. The American work ethic has eroded. You just can't get anyone to show up regularly sober, clean, professional, and conscientious. They miss two days of work, don't call in, then come dragging in looking like hell thinking they still have a job. They smoke and drink soda in customers homes, talk with their buddies on the cell phone shouting F-bombs when they should be working. No sense of responsibility.

Gary_15

Union Apprenticeship

I'd say take a look at the apprenticeship the Union offers in your area. I am a Union plumber/pipeiftter for 23 years and have experienced a very positive experience from it. I have been a journeyman and apprentice instructor for the past 17 years. More recently I have been in business for myself and maintained my relationship with my Union as a signed contractor and dues paying member. Our benefit plans are very good, healthcare, pension, annutiy, etc. Despite some of the posts below we Union members are not all liberal mafiosos any more than the non-union workers are less educated or lower quality workers. This is all old-school propoganda B.S. that serves no positive purpose to this trade. As for the laziness of the young people today I disagree. Blame our school systems and people in the trades who do little to promote this type of work. Many of our tradespeople today work like they do so their kids "won't have to"?! Won't have to what? Earn an honest living working with their hands so they can earn a decent living to provide a home for their families? I will never understand this way of thinking. Check that apprenticeship out, and I wish you the best of luck. Whatever path you decide to go down I hope this trade is as rewarding for you as it has been (and continues to be) for me. Look for people with positive opinions on the trade, not those who have spent their time regretting getting into it. If I can be of any help email me.
Gary Shimmel, President
Integrity Plumbing & Heating Service Inc.
Mechanicsburg, PA
integrity_plumbing@comcast.net

Joe Grosso

It is a ok package that is offer to the workers.Owner and union man 100% paid for health,dental and opitical.Paid vaction 1 week each five years of service.All paid holidays.Pension as well as deffered com account that is 4 a hour up to 1700 hours a year.That is what union offers.

DanHolohan

Nobody wants to work?

Kind of a broad statment there, don't you think, Bob?

Bob Harper

work ethic

Maybe in your area things are different Dan but around Philly, it is absolutely unreal. I don't know of a single employer who doesn't have this sort of labor problem with tradespeople. The veterans show up for work and do good work with the occasional exception. They are just disgusted as the owners because they have to pick up the slack. When they try to teach these kids, the kids don't seem to care. When I worked as a Regional Quality Assurance Manager for a major hearth appliance provider, we found this problem all over the country. We tried switching from subs to employees then went back to subs. Very poor productivity, poor workmanship and no motivation to advance or excel. What I'm saying is the quality of raw material for the trade schools has gone way down with a few rare exceptions.

ALH_4

Working

I think it is a symptom of our society where it is generally accepted that, to be successful, everyone should go to a 4-year university. This has many effects, with the end result being those who consider the trades are those who lack ambition. I went to school for engineering because I love working with my hands, but, ironically, now that I have the degree and work for a consulting firm, I no longer have the opportunity to work with my hands. To be completely honest, it's a result I never considered. I got the degree because I wanted to better understand the world around me. I am sure I am not the only one who has made this sort of choice for those reasons.

Just my two cents.

Chris_82

Did i ever mention,...

That Local one used to send many of it's people to the other guys, and when Union workers were done bailing the other guys out what came back were horror stories about no breaks, defective tools, managers constantly telling hard working union workers who were sweating that they need to pick up the pace? No regard for safety, checks in the mail, that never came, no insurance and when a few individuals did get hurt these same managers wanting to make cash deals to go to this hospital or that clinic? Did I mention the fact that some of the sons and daughters found work writing hate mail to every elected official for these same other guys. Did I mention that while working as an estimator for about 15 years much of the work that went non-union they were the high bidder and were caught many times importing southern migrant laborers and calling them plumbing apprentices and laborers? Do you know that there is a waiting list for apprentices in N.Y. and about 25% have at least two years of post high school education! I can go on but I think I am wasting my time...But I have a hard time with anyone who advocates not checking out what the unions have to offer, at no risk or obligation and for your information over 80% of the unions membership in the majority of all citys and towns served by union workers have worked uninteruppted for the last 8 years. And over 15,000 to 18,000 union employees country wide have 18 months of accumulated hospital insurance for themselves and their families if they get laid off, 18 months! The average union apprentice has $12,000 combined value at the end of 5 years in their annuity and pension accounts. you are so far off the mark I can only wonder why you are spreading hate and lies? And the unions don't tolerate drinking or drug abuse, and if your late more than once you probably will get laid off as well as if you don't know what your doing.

Chris_82

Unions don't as a rule pay for vacations or holidays, but the benifit package compensates in other ways like a wage you can send you kids to college or buy a house. A no hassel health plan that covers everything! and any doctor or treatment. unions are far from an outmoded idea and unions are here to stay....the biggest concern non-union shops have.... it affects the bosses bottom line ya wanna know why 99% of all highrises are union... because the union workers like the hard work and deliver on time and under budget! Ya wanna know why most high rises never get inspected because the plumbing inspectors know there not going to find defects or problems. And the owners and archtects and engineeers and bankers know this as well! Theres nothing worse than a miserable plumber and the world is full of people that couldn't hack it in a union shop.

jackchips_2

This must

be the "New Chris" but unfortunately "same as the old Chris".

You should try non-fiction seeing you are so good at fiction.

:-))

Jack

John R. Hall

Stay on topic

Please

DanHolohan

Yes,

or lose the thread.

Glen

my apologies -

knee jerk reaction - unfortunately the muscle spasm didn't prevent me from hitting the "post" key.

larry_15

Union Apprenticeship's

John:

I have worked both sides of the trades and have been wanting to express my idea's on the matter. Is it still viable entry point? Yes! The real situation is a couple of problems that I see.

(1) Is that non unoin sector does not really understand the union.

example: those here that union bash! they don't realize the true benefit of a unions, and that it is an educational program.

(2) All unions are bad? If that is true then why do those that are educated beleive in unoins? Exalame: Teacher's unoin? student unions at the univesities? and so on?

It is not the unions, it is the igorance about the unions.

The bottom line is that the unoins don't want those that are unwilling to learn or those that think they can learn everything on the job!

Our society thinks you can learn everything on the job. Look how the people in the local government are? After eight years of working in the feild and no schooling you can take a Master's Test and you know everthing!

Anyway' that is the kind of area I moved into after living in a union town like Chicago. Now that I live in the sticks there code is harder than any other place you could live in.

Get a clue, the only reason there code may be harder is that they allow the things that most area's don't.

On one thread here I was told that CSST gas piping was the only thing legal to allows any joint in the wall. HELLO! Who are you fooling? No Body But Yourself. Get A Clue! screw pipe schedule 40 with malible steel is still, legal and probably will always be legal. Likewise all weld joint are legal. Look in NFPA 54 or your local (State Plumbing code)

They real problem is that the union wants smart people not those who have droped out of school and figure that the union is the only place thay have left to make a good living.

I have been in more than one union. The frist one was Local 597 in Chiacago and now I am in Local 6 Rochester Minnesota. Both unions wanted the cream of the crop. Those who did well in school mechanical and scolastical.

We have been talking about the Aprenticeship and what kind of people we want. No longer do we want those that come right out of high school becauase most don't have or show an interest in the trade. Now we are looking at those who have some secondary schooling in the trade for the apprenticeship along with a strong math back ground.

I hope this helps claerifies some points and helps you to look for the kind of people we need to make strong unions and help other to realize that like all trade unions The UA... United Association of Journeymen of Plumbers Steamfitters-Pipefitters, Sprinklerfitters and Service Tachnicains. Are looking for those that are willing to work, learn and dedicate themselves to program that they can learn form for the reat of therre lives.


Larry R. Leyba

larry_15

Union Apprenticeship's

John:

I have worked both sides of the trades and have been wanting to express my idea's on the matter. Is it still viable entry point? Yes! The real situation is a couple of problems that I see.

(1) Is that non unoin sector does not really understand the union.

example: those here that union bash! they don't realize the true benefit of a unions, and that it is an educational program.

(2) All unions are bad? If that is true then why do those that are educated beleive in unoins? Exalame: Teacher's unoin? student unions at the univesities? and so on?

It is not the unions, it is the igorance about the unions.

The bottom line is that the unoins don't want those that are unwilling to learn or those that think they can learn everything on the job!

Our society thinks you can learn everything on the job. Look how the people in the local government are? After eight years of working in the feild and no schooling you can take a Master's Test and you know everthing!

Anyway' that is the kind of area I moved into after living in a union town like Chicago. Now that I live in the sticks there code is harder than any other place you could live in.

Get a clue, the only reason there code may be harder is that they allow the things that most area's don't.

On one thread here I was told that CSST gas piping was the only thing legal to allows any joint in the wall. HELLO! Who are you fooling? No Body But Yourself. Get A Clue! screw pipe schedule 40 with malible steel is still, legal and probably will always be legal. Likewise all weld joint are legal. Look in NFPA 54 or your local (State Plumbing code)

They real problem is that the union wants smart people not those who have droped out of school and figure that the union is the only place thay have left to make a good living.

I have been in more than one union. The frist one was Local 597 in Chiacago and now I am in Local 6 Rochester Minnesota. Both unions wanted the cream of the crop. Those who did well in school mechanical and scolastically.

We have been talking about the Aprenticeship and what kind of people we want. No longer do we want those that come right out of high school because most don't have or show an interest in the trade. Now we are looking at those who have some kind of secondary schooling in the trade for the apprenticeship along with a strong math back ground.

I hope this helps clearifies some points and helps you to look for the kind of people we need to make strong unions and help other to realize that like all trade unions The UA... The United Association of Journeymen of Plumbers Steamfitters-Pipefitters, Sprinklerfitters and Service Tachnicains. Are looking for those that are willing to work, learn and dedicate themselves to program that they can learn form for the rest of there lives.


Larry R. Leyba