New boiler

Lurkin' Murkin'

The pump can be installed on either the supply (water outlet) or the return (water inlet) - neither location is "wrong". But the flow direction out of the boiler and location of components (expansion tank, cold fill pressure regulator, etc.) in relation to the pump location is critical. You will read about "pumping away" in other threads of this forum, but this does not necessarily mean the pump has to be on the supply of the boiler. If you have the instruction manual, you can verify this. Also, I would highly recommend clocking the gas meter, as per the manual directions, to confirm the gas input has been restored to the specified value.

loopy

New Boiler

I had my plumber replace a boiler I have in rental property I own. It is a second floor apt 1200 sqft in a masonary building which is not insulated that good I'm sure. He said the old American standard boiler which had a input of 125btu and output of 100btu with baseboard was oversized. He installed a Slantfin Senty S-90 90k btu input and I think he said 76k output. If he calculated the boiler size correctly do you think my tenant will see any savings in their gas bill.If so how much? My main concern was a reliable boiler, but it would be nice if the tenant saved some money.

Weezbo

that is about as good as it gets for 60 btu's a square foot.

Brad White

The tenant should save some

but not nearly as much as if you insulated and tightened up the envelope (if that is indeed possible or practical for it may not be).

The savings will be perceptable but not great in that there will be less losses due to cycling in milder weather. But without knowing what the actual heat loss is and how close that is to the boiler output, it is just a guess as to how much.

I agree with Weezbo that a structure like that can run about 60 BTUH per SF in a zero-degree design climate.

Lawrence

new boiler

Just got a call from my tenant its 12deg. outside and they have the heat set on 80deg. and its 45deg in the apt. Time to to call the plumber back. I hope its not undersized.

Lawrence

Plumber just called and said he checked the boiler. The aquastat was set at 190deg and the gauge was reading 125deg. He said he raised the gas valve pressure by turning the screww on the gas valve and put the aquastat at max and now water temp is 170deg. He feels the aquastat is bad. Does this sound possible for a new boiler? Tenants are not happy.

Brad White_9

Heat Loss

and radiation output is what it all gets down to. If you do not have enough radiation that is one thing. That would show up as the boiler hitting the high limit, the radiation hot as can be and the space still cold.

This does not seem to be your situation.

Wait a few hours and report back. Even if the water is reaching 170 degrees it should be significantly warmer than the 40's you noted. But of course you have a lot of uninsulated masonry to warm up first.

My advice? Next time rent to penguins. You save on heating expense and they are cute even when they do complain. Only they crap all over the place so carpets are out.

ALH_4

turning the screws

That's not really how it works. Something tells me this plumber does not use his combustion analyzer if he owns one. You should find someone to set up the boiler properly before replacing any more parts.

If 60 btu/sf will not carry the heat load, it is truly time to start looking at some sort of insulation. Masonry looks great, but has terrible insulating value. Insulation is by far the best investment you can make to reduce the heating bills. Plus, if you insulate, you can raise the rent and still save the tenant money. Then some of that money currently going to the utility goes to you.

Lawrence

With the old boiler it warmed up very quick.

The plumber said the boiler temp was going up to 125deg and burners shut down and continued to circulate then cycled through again when temp dropped. He said it was running like the aquastat was set for 125deg., not the 190deg it was really set at. I assume this is why he felt the aquastat was bad or not calibrated correctly. I hope he is right.

Lawrence

I will ask him if he has a analyzer but my main concern is getting heat for the tenant today.

As for radiation if I recall the whole apt has baseboard running around the perimeter of the unit. It basically loops around the whole apt.
thanks

Christian Egli_2

Before you place an ad in the Penguin News Daily

I feel sorry for laughing at your misfortune.

Getting indoor temperatures to 45F in cold climates is something that is easily achieved with no heat whatsoever. I monitor buildings with no heat - and they don't get all that cold, but I'd still take penguin money for them.

I take it also that the 45F complaint is a true value and not just an exaggerated one for the purpose of drama.

With this in mind, whether your boiler output varies from 90 to 125, or anything within that sort of bracket, should not explain the seemingly total lack of heat. I'd go look for a frozen circulator, a mispiped header, a closed valve somewhere, air bubbles everywhere - perhaps even, the system wasn't refilled with water, the key ingredient in hydronics.

It could be that simple of an oversight. Good luck.

Lawrence

If I cant get Penguins I will get Polar Bears.

I know he put water in the system because I saw him do that during the install.
Does it make any sense why the boiler temp is 170deg with the aquastat set at max 200+ deg. I'm still waiting for him to come back with the new aquastat. I asked him about air in the system and he said it was coming back hot. Its only one loop for the apt.
Is it possible its because the units undersized?
Thanks

Lurkin' Murkin'

Did the plumber confirm that the circulator is pumping in the right direction? Maybe backwards installation would fool the aquastat or cause flow problems. Definitely raising the gas valve manifold pressure significantly will create CO, and possibly flue gas spillage - this must be restored to the specified gas input immediately!

Lawrence

I will make him aware of your concerns. I do know the pump came mounted on the boiler from the factory. I will the give plumber a chance today and if its still not correct I will get someone else tomorrow.

Mitch_4

ok

did he change the circulator to the one that came with the boiler? Did he check to see if the new pump is applicable to the new system?

Can't tell you the number of times someone has replaced the boiler and pump in an old gravity system, and the new pump is like a TACO 007, or Grundof 15-42.

If this is the case, and your pipes are 3" diameter or so..it will NOT move enough water, no way, no how. But guys do it because "Its a new pump, and it came with the boiler so it should be good, right?" WRONG, the circulator is sized to the system..

Mitch

Christian Egli_2

Polar bears are oversized anyways

If all you can get is 45F in the apartment and the 90 MBTU/h boiler is running full blast all day long, even in 12F outside weather, something else is bizarrely wrong.

Check to see that the radiators are at least hot if not screaming hot at 170F already. Check also that the tenants have not left the windows open - just to test the new boiler, just because it's new and they thought it should knock their socks off. For the rest, you'll have to work this out with your installer, it seems you have a nice boiler in there.

lee_7

lawrence,
where are you located? if plumber does not have analyzer, maybe a pro here is near by and can help you today. Tenant will need heat today, not tomorrow. If it is 45 degrees now, probably getting cold. i would have them turn on domestic water lines to a trickle to help keep from freezing. In walls, temp might be lower then 45. best of luck

pete_22

Well Lurkin you were correct the circulator was going the wrong way. I looked in the manual and showed him and he said it shouldnt matter. Well after scratching his head and telling him lets reverse the circulator and see what happens it worked. Boiler went up to 190Deg and water was circulating nicely. Apt was 54deg before the fix, how many degrees per hour do you think it will rise if you had to guess. 5deg per hour?
Thanks
for the help.

Lurkin' Murkin'

Glad I could help - but now I feel bad about those evicted penguins... So what did the plumber do about the gas valve adjustment?

Unknown

is the pump

If your heating" guy had the pump backward.... Is the pump on the supply or return piping? Depending on the kind of radiators you have, you may need and thermostaic bypass at boiler to the heat up quicker at boiler and protects same...

lawrence_2

He has the pump on the supply, which I told him is wrong. I have baseboard no radiators.
As for the gas valve he turned screw back. I guess I need to find a pro with a combustion analyzer.
thanks

ALH_4

combustion

If I were you, I would call someone with a combustion analyzer immediately, and in the mean time clock the meter yourself to make sure the input is what it should be.

It sounds to me as if it could be way off at this point.

Lurkin' Murkin'

Just a little caution on the combustion analysis - this type of atmospheric boiler has an integral draft diverter built into it's design. You should see a sheetmetal box on the upper rear area, with the stack pipe coming up from the top, and no additional draft hood. Combustion readings taken from the stack pipe will be extremely diluted, and of little value to any adjustment. The readings must be taken from inside the boiler, in the flue area before the draft diverter. This is not so simple - it is hard to reach (unless holes are drilled), and the readings vary in that area. It would be good to have someone experienced with this design do the combustion analysis, but if they are not they may screw up the gas valve adjustment even worse!

Clocking the meter is something you can do right now, to verify that you are at or near the correct input rate. Then you should get someone competent with a combustion analyzer that can say for sure that they are familiar with the correct testing and adjusting methods for this type of appliance.