Fastening Wirsbo plates

Ted_9

Where did you buy this quick drive?

I use regular 3/4 sheet metal screws.

Massachusetts

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=373&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Steve_117

Fastening Wirsbo Joist track?

We have a job coming up where we need to decide on the fastening system we will use for Joist track (aprox 600 plates)And any istallation tips. Thought about using a stapler or roofing nailer. But my concern with that would be long term contact with the subfloor (expansion and contraction loosening the plates). Would screws be better?if so, what type/length/diameter(3/4'subfloor). The Wirsbo plates are pre drilled I believe. Any ideas/experience/tips from The masters on this would be greatly apreciated. Thanks!!

Contractor

staples or screws
Staples 7/16 - 1/2" crown by 1 - 1-1/2"
Tech Screws 1 - 1-1/2"
For the staple gun set your pressure to around 80 pounds, give or take depending on how its shooting. Dont worry about the plates loosening, once those staples are in those arent going anywhere.
wear eye and ear protection, those staples can fly if not perfectly square and the noise in b/w the joist can do some damage.
Glad to see you at least using the plates, too much brainwashing going on about the plates not being needed and still have an efficeient system.

hr

I'm steering away from nailers and staplers

seems the heavy extruded plates combined with the super tough underlayments used these days have me concerned.

I've had trouble with both my roofing nailer and new Senco stapler being able to drive the plates up tightly. And a lot of misfires.

Looking at some plated I had to remove, the dimple from the nails or staples actually push the plates away from the subfloor!

Seeing as most, if not all, of the extruded plates now have pre-drilled holes I'm rethinking my attachment methodolgy.

Screws seem to be the best, but fairly slow. I've modified this SuperDrive to be able to see the screw better as it protrudeds from the tool. I haven't had a good chance to try it however.

Another potential tool is the new "joist hanger" nail guns. I've seen several brands on the market. On one brand the nail protruded from the gun to allow you to start in the joist hanger holes.

The only problem, so far, is I've only seen 1-1/2" length nails. That would be hard on you feet when walking above:)

I have to go struggle for the legal tender now. I'll post some pics later.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ALH_4

Attaching Extruded Plates

Here is an old thread about plate attachment.

ALH_4

Screws

I am not sold on pre-punched holes. I do not see where self-drilling screws are that much harder to work with. It is amazing what punching those holes costs compared to using self drilling screws for installation. It adds another handling step during manufacture, and I submit that it encourages the use of inappropriate screws, such as drywall or other flat-head screws meant to be countersunk.

In my opinion: The highest quality installation method would be hex-head self-drilling #8 screws. Least labor-intensive are the pneumatic methods, and the quality of installation is still very good.

Steve_117

Fastening Wirsbo Joist track?

Thank you for your responses! It seems to me that Screwing the plates makes the most sense because it distorts the plates the least (the least amount of distortion-best contact with the floor)?

eluv8

joist track install tools

I just finished a job of joist track using a tool called the quick drive. using 3/4 inch self tapping metal screws course thread. Worked very well each clip holds enough for about 2.5 plates and can be stored in a pouch or pockets. Fine thread worked also but I like a little overkill when things are getting buried behind drywall. Holds extreamly well I tried removing some and had to remove the screws to avoid tearing the aluminum.

Darin Cook_5

That is troubling HR


I went and bought a Senco Stapler based on your recommendations and installed a joist track system last year using it. The plates all seemed to be very tight at the time of install. You now have me worried that there may be problems looming in the future with it not maintaining contact with the sub-floor.
I can definitely appreciate that screws would hold the best but the labor to install the plates would increase substantially, thus increasing the cost of the job substantially. This raises a question: At what point does the "superior performance" of plates not outweigh the much more affordable install cost of staple-up Onix for the same degree of comfort to the consumer?








Darin Cook,
Comfortable Home Technologies

Darin Cook_5

Andrew

Have you heard of anyone having problems with plate detachment who used a staple gun?








Darin Cook,
Comfortable Home Technologies

clammy

quick question

Sorry but don't want to seem stupid cause i know i am but i have always been told that self tapping or tek screws where not a real good hold into any type of wood being that they expand the wood and do not have the same hold abality of a real wood screw by not having the tap head ,just my thoughts i have always tryed to use the correct screw for the job ,i would probalby go with screws and use a 3/4 or 1 inch #10 shank x 5/16 hex screw preferable made in the US not china ,taiwan or where ever as for cost /time compared to staple up on most install i tryed to sell every body wants cheap so a plate system is out of the question being every one always looked at me like i'm outta my mind with prices compared to others selling radiant systems seems alot of fixed mixing valves and oxinostaple up and there outta there ,i kinda stopped trying to sell or talk about radiant with HO cause it always ends up being that just talk which like some people and HO are cheap soory for the rant peace and good luck clammy

Ted_9

screwed

Well I haven't heard of any problems. I've done it this way since the early 90's with the company I worked for and I do it now on my installs. I use the zip screws, not tech screws, if that matters.

Massachusetts

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ALH_4

staples

Darin, I have never heard of plates attached with a staple gun coming loose.

With 4-foot plates, heating them from 80°F to 180°F (obviously a very high temperature for plates), there should be no more than 1/32 inch of movement in any direction. This assumes the wood does not expand at all while the aluminum is expanding, which is probably a reasonable assumption.

With 8-foot plates, there should be no more than 1/16 inch movement under the same conditions.

Using the plates properly and running at 100°F for example, the movement of a 4-foot plate should be no more than approximately 1/64 inch, or 1/32 inch for 8-foot plates.

I have never seen this become an issue, though I hope very few floors are running under the worst-case conditions.

ALH_4

Grabber

The Grabber SuperDrive is what I have used.

Tim Doran_4

Staples work well

I have used and promoted the use of a stapler for several years now and have had no issues that I am aware of. I used this method in three of my own remodels/additions and have had a chance to go back and see how things are behaving after a few seasons. I haven't seen any problems. I use 10 staples per plate, keep the air pressure down to 80-90 psi so that the staples penetrate but do not dimple too much and you'll be fine.

Tim D.

Mark Hunt

Same here Tim


If the plate is flat to begin with, a staple under the proper pressure is not going to distort the plate. Not enought to make any difference. A screw driven in far enough could cause the same distortion.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Tim, have you stapled

the mid weight extruded plates to the bottom of Advantech or Plytanium?

For some reason I'm having a hard time lately with either my roofing nailer or new Senco stapler.

Lots of bent nails and staples. Even blows the nose piece open on the stapler from time to time.

I've installed the heavy gauge Radiant Engineering plates for over 12 years now without a problem. UNTIL the new dense subfloors showed up.

In 2007 I personally installed over 10,000 feet of RE plates, so it's not a one time fluke.

Even the framers acknowledge that old, weak nail guns will not nail through the new subfloor products. Leaves a lot of "proud" nail heads.

I see a lot of framers in this area switching to that new light weight high pressure nailers.

Same with roof sheathing. After all the hurricain roof failures they now use that tough, dense Advantech on the roofs for much better nail holding. It also weathers much better.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Cosmo_3

staple vs screw

I completed a 7,000 sq ft plate job and used staples, job is in service now for 4 years, I was back this fall for a tuneup of the boiler, and pushed away some insulation to see if the plates have loosened up at all, and glad to see them still as tight as the day it was installed. This job has Advantech sub-floor, and misfired staples were a common occurrence.

As far as dimples, when using a stapler I found you can reduce dimpling by lowering air pressure, and having a helper push up on the plate with a broom handle. Obviously this ruins the time savings, and we went back to just getting it up and stapling as fast as possible. Yes the plates do dimple alittle no matter what you do.

The best way to install and get the best heat transfer in my opinion is to screw the plates on. As long as you get paid enough to do it!!

I am not sure what loss of efficiency there may be from the dimpling, maybe someone can do a comparison by stapling one plate, and screwing the next in the same joist-bay, and using a thermal image camera to see if there is a difference in output from the top of the sub-floor...

Cosmo

ALH_4

Productivity

I don't know about others, but my calculations of labor savings indicated that stapling or nailing more than doubled the productivity! As we all know, that makes a huge difference in the price of an extruded plate job. with the stapler I can install 4-foot plates by myself, something I cannot do with the Grabber guns.

Cosmo_3

That's the crux of the problem!

Time is money!!!!

Cosmo

hr

I'll show you my findings

in the first pic I used a basic pointed zip screw. Some call them self tapping, but in this case without the drill point.

With this method it is easy to have the plate push away from the subfloor if you don't hold it tightly. Or allow the screw to strip in the aluminum ONLY. A good trick.

The second one is the SuperDrive with a drill point screw. It drills the plate nicely and pulls tight. It takes a sensitive trigger finger or you will strip the screw out of the wood. As the drill point is almost as big as the threads. This is actually a metal framing screw, not the best for wood but one of the few choices in a 3/4" length.

A drill pointed zip screw works fairly well but is the slowest as you hand feed every screw.

I've midified the SuperDrive so you can see the screw. My next attempt will be with the predrilled plates and an actual wood screw, no drill point, in the SuperDrive.

The impact feature of the SuperDrive helps pull the plate tightly to the floor.

The down side of the SuperDrive is the weight, it wears you pout quickly when working overhead, and is slower than staplers.

Maybe Andrew knows why it has gotten harded to gun the ThermoFins up? Did Dale increase the temper when he reduced the thickness of the plate. Possibly to keep the patened tight tube grip. Something has changed?

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

I'll show you my findings

in the first pic (011) used a basic pointed zip screw. Some call them self tapping, but in this case without the drill point.

With this method it is easy to have the plate push away from the subfloor if you don't hold it tightly. Or allow the screw to strip in the aluminum ONLY. A good trick.

The second one is the SuperDrive with a drill point screw. It drills the plate nicely and pulls tight. It takes a sensitive trigger finger or you will strip the screw out of the wood. As the drill point is almost as big as the threads. This is actually a metal framing screw, not the best for wood but one of the few choices in a 3/4" length.

A drill pointed zip screw works fairly well but is the slowest as you hand feed every screw.

I've modified the SuperDrive so you can see the screw. My next attempt will be with the predrilled plates and an actual wood screw, no drill point, in the SuperDrive.

The impact feature of the SuperDrive helps pull the plate tightly to the floor.

The down side of the SuperDrive is the weight, it wears you out quickly when working overhead, and is slower than staplers.

For the cost of the plates I want them tight. The last pic show what a loose plate look like via the infrared.

Maybe Andrew knows why it has become harder to gun the ThermoFins up? Did Dale increase the temper when he reduced the thickness of the plate. Possibly to keep the patened tight tube grip? Something has changed? I've never had this many bent fastners and half way in shots. Same tools same air pressure as before.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Wheeler Plumbing & Heating (Bryant Wheeler)

ZIP SCREWS

we have been using zip screws 1/2" with deridine bit.we also all work off of drywall stillets which makes putting up the plates and running the tubing alot faster.we also cut a 2x4 at a comfortable lenght so you can walk along a hit the tubing into plate.we put foam insulation on the bottom of 2x4.works good

ALH_4

Alloys

They changed extuders a couple years ago, about the time of the introduction of Thinfin. Ironicaly, my feelings were that the hardness of the aluminum was a bit less than with the old extruder. The current fin has been through so many tests during that change that it has to be right. If memory serves me right, it is 6063-T5, as it always has been. 6000 series aluminum does continue to harden with age, even at room temperature. I'm not sure if this would make a very noticeable difference.

I even tried a 1" crown stapler on Thermofin. It almost worked. The few staples that did penetrate fully looked really good, but those were rare.

Cosmo_3

Thanks Hot Rod

I think that your infra red pic pretty much settled the issue.

We should all thank Hot Rod for saving us all money we might have wasted if not for his unselfish way of sharing the results of his experiments!!

I wonder if there is a manufacturer that makes a stronger staple?

I guess to stop the dimpling the staples would need some kind of washer to spread out the pressure of the strike over a larger area than just the crown, or possibly some manufacturer could design staples that use a large flat crown?

Cosmo