Problems with Steam Heat

John_140

You mentioned that the 2nd floor is insulated. Is this both ceiling and wall insulation? What type of insulation? Is there a third floor apartment or just an attic space?


If attic space - Check the attic insulation and airsealing.
For the top floor, one of your greatest areas of heat loss can be an uninsulated or improperly airsealed attic space. Even good wall insulation will not be very effective if the heated air is escaping through the ceiling.

If 3rd floor apartment - What kind of bills are you seeing in the 3rd floor apartment and what is the typical temperture?

We are currently working on a two family home with a one zone steam system where the top floor is about 10F to 15F colder than the 1st floor. The problem was the lack of insulation/proper airsealing in the attic.

Hope this helps.

Dave_4

Problems with Steam Heat

I need help. I have a three family apartment building in Portland Maine. There is natural gas in the building. The first floor has a ten year old furnace and it is forced hot water. Over 20 day period, the first floor used about 2 ccfs a day in the winter The second floor is steam. Over 20 day period,the second floor used about 11 ccfs. They are the same sq. footage and the seond floor tenants keep the thermostat at 58 degrees. We have had ongoing issues with the second floor bills being really high..We haven't gotten much help from the Utility and all they ever say is that the usage has been consistent for 7 years and it reflects the high cost of natural gas. We have done the following: new windows, the apt is insulated, the furnace is new (Oct.), thermostat is new (programmable), and I have replaced all of the valves, there isn't a gas leak, the meter has been checked and is fine...The radiators appear to work fine...they don't bang, they heat up etc. We are in the process of having an energy audit done
Questions: How much more efficient is forced hot water than steam?
Could the steam be getting lost along the way to the apt? The pipes are exposed on the first floor and are not in the wall. What else can we do? Is there any step by step instructions that I can give to a plumber and have him rule out things...Everyone (except the utility) says something is wrong...BUT...nobody knows a solution...Any help would be greatly appreciated!

steven E.HEAT

Has a professional ever checked the steam water quality and the venting. Also the steam pipe insulation.check the high limit pressure in the system. If set too high fuel will be big.Are all the rads. heating evenly and at what press? is there a leak ? Is the boiler flue ways clean? what is the stack temp? If all checks out than get a thermo image in there. good luck!

gerry gill

also,

is the boiler sized properly? is it fired properly? is the pressure switch pigtail open?

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chip_10

Ht loss

What pressure does the boiler produce and how long does it take to heat up the radiators? How long is it off between heat cycles?
Sounds like the upstairs is paying for 1/2 of the down stairs heat bill due to the un insulated pipes in the downstairs Apt.
Fiberglass insulation works well & they sell a plastic snap type cover to protect the insulation from damage, no need to paint etc. Or you could use the muslin cloth & paste type covering to protect the fiberglass insulation.
len

Dave_4

The second floor has a drop ceiling and above is an old plaster ceiling. There are several inches between the two. Is it possible to insulate in there? I was worried that the suspended ceiling couldn't hold the weight.
The third floor is a small apartment...They have a Rinnai heater which has been very popular with every tenant who has lived there. The attic, above the third floor is insulated but the auditor we have said that it needs more insulation. They keep it at 65 and the bills in the winter are $75-$100 for the natural gas..Thanks for the insights..



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louis_2

converting burnham v86 steam boiler to water

I just bought a burnham v86 boiler not realizing it was steam. I called burnham direct they said it could be converted but wouldn't tell me how to do it. I was wondering if someone could help me with detailed specs on doing this and what controls i would need to change. the boiler is 1 year old and is it worth to invest the money. Also the boiler has two pipes coming out on the top. What typre of control needs to be put on what aquastat circulator pump. It doesn't have a coil for domestic hot water. Thanks again

John_140

Hobbos and Thermal scans

You mentioned the temperture settings on the first and 3rd floors. Do you have actual, accurate thermometer readings for these floors? If you find that the ambient temperture is higher than the thermostat settings, you have confirmation that the heat is leaching from the steam system on the middle floor. Hobbos are a good way of measuring room temps across time. A few days where the weather calls for heat should do the trick. If you find leaching, follow the suggestions for insulating the pipes and verifying the settings on the boiler.

Another idea is to have a thermal scan done, best early in the morning after a cold/cool night, while the heating systems are turned on. We have solved some surprising problems using this method.

Hope this helps.

John_140

Insulate the ceiling

If that is your setup (heated 3rd floor above), then I would look for the source of the problem elsewhere first. There are ways to insulate a plaster ceiling, but they are not pretty. How about your wall insulation?

ttekushan_3

fuel consumption

thats at least 6 times greater (since the temps set at 58) has NOTHING to do with the heating medium. Either something is malfunctioning on the heating system in question or there is an avenue for tremendous heat loss through hidden areas.

Finding the problem and rectifying it is the solution. Any decisions made without knowing the real cause is premature and wasteful.

A good steam person can do a combustion analysis and determine if there is too much or too little fire for the number of radiators.

As mentioned by others, you have to have the space assessed for energy losses.

I had a situation similar to yours where the each apt took one floor of the house. Wall heater on the third floor apartment. The second floor's heating bills were always 3 times the first floor's. The hot water boilers and heating systems were IDENTICAL. I tuned up both boilers and the next year the relationship was unchanged. The owner had both cast iron units pulled and installed ultra high efficiency condensing boilers and indirect water heaters for each of the two main floors. Both bills went down and the second floor's bills were STILL 3 times the first's!

So its energy audit time.

My guess is that you have both: 1) an as yet undiscovered heat loss somewhere on that floor, and 2) a steam heating system that needs a thorough tune-up.

-Terry