apartment building fuel bills

steven e heat

I need opinions from experienced steam heads to help determine the causes and effects of a poorly installed steam boiler job in a 52 unit resi. apartment building in southern p.a. HUGE fuel bills in the tune of approx.$85,000 anual fuel bill .I have some ideas for improvement but would love some opinions. The system consists of a 1 pipe steam ,recessed govanale convectors. building is 6 stories w2 -5" steam risers that supplies all rads. new windows, new insul. roof,in 2004 someone installed a burnham v1113 w 3-8 gal tankless coils beck.cr 2500 oil burner. EDR MATCH is correct radiation to boiler net output inc.pick up factor. not sure if building is heating evenly. The boiler was installed using only a 5" header!! Is it possible that a poorly vented system ,and improperly sized header cause this type of fuel bill? would appreciate any input from you pros. thanks.

Steamhead (in transit)

Yes it can!

> I need opinions from experienced steam heads to

> help determine the causes and effects of a poorly

> installed steam boiler job in a 52 unit resi.

> apartment building in southern p.a. HUGE fuel

> bills in the tune of approx.$85,000 anual fuel

> bill .I have some ideas for improvement but would

> love some opinions. The system consists of a 1

> pipe steam ,recessed govanale convectors.

> building is 6 stories w2 -5" steam risers that

> supplies all rads. new windows, new insul.

> roof,in 2004 someone installed a burnham v1113

> w 3-8 gal tankless coils beck.cr 2500 oil

> burner. EDR MATCH is correct radiation to boiler

> net output inc.pick up factor. not sure if

> building is heating evenly. The boiler was

> installed using only a 5" header!! Is it possible

> that a poorly vented system ,and improperly sized

> header cause this type of fuel bill? would

> appreciate any input from you pros. thanks.





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Steamhead (in transit)

Yes it can!

For a thread on a somewhat smaller building with a similar situation, go here:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=29563&mc=59

What part of Southern PA is this located in?

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lee_7

is this oil /gas /propane?

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Yes...you are on target.................

And, With Steamhead not far away, the bldg manage'nt would make a wise investment having Steamhead come out for a consult. Fuel bills WILL be cut! Mad Dog

steven E.HEAT

apartment building fuel bills

the building is just outside of harrisburg. Its oil heat and the origional boiler only had a 5" header . Imagine the velocity of the departing steam. Which dan H. taught me means WET STEAM AND INEFFICIENCIES.Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you

Steamhead (in transit)

I looked at the V-11 I&O manual

the V-1113 should have three 4-inch risers, a minimum 8-inch header and 4-inch equalizer! No wonder they're having problems.

Now if I were doing that job, I'd use a 10- or 12-inch drop header and a 6-inch equalizer. Might as well slow the steam down and let it expand as much as we can before it heads out to the system.

Also, are you using low-high-low firing? You should be.

P.S. Harrisburg is right up the road from Baltimore....

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steven E.HEAT

apartment building fuel bills

Thank you steam head. The burner is not mod.highlow off.
only. My heating helper bible tells me the steam is leaving @ around 100fps+ and when the installer installed this boiler disaster they replaced wet ret. lines wnew dry returns and used the same size as the old . now these dry returns are too small for the edr they serve. I got some great pics of large drop headers i think you'll like, let me know. thanks

Steamhead (in transit)

Bring 'em on!

Dan might just want to use those pics for the Drop Header section of the Library.

Mose commercial burners are available in low-high-low configuration, so it might be easy to upgrade that one. Controlled by a Vaporstat, this would allow you to mimic the old coal fire under damper control, drastically reduce the number of starts and stops and save a bunch of oil.

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steven E.HEAT

apartment building fuel bills

I was considering in ripping out those tiny pipes and putting some real guns. and min. 12" droppie 6" eq.and putting back a wet return (in this case not difficult remove the new line sized steam traps) and i would chuck the burner and install a power flame dual fuel vari-cam burner full mod. rm7800 honeywell ignition control. than i'd insulate and master vent it than danfoss the rad vents.
install tekmar 269 .I did that on 2 other apt. buildings that I bought and i cut the fuel cost in half. Im amazed how people pay those kinds of fuel bills for soooo. long.I'll work on the pics. thank you

Steamhead (in transit)

Why do you need

steam traps on a one-pipe system? Does it have a pumped return? If so, does it NEED pumped return? I bet it would work fine with gravity return, then you could do away with the traps altogether.

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steven E.HEAT

The plumber installed return traps when he turned wet return to dry return and installed a pump which will come out.this system will become a gravity return again .i'd like to keep it simple.

steven E.HEAT

apartment building fuel bills

STEAMHEAD thanks for your inputs. Where are you from?

Steamhead (in transit)

Baltimore!

which is why I posted that Harrisburg is right up the road.

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steven E.HEAT

apartment building fuel bills

cool. the reason i asked is because viega stadler is holding a warmboard class in their nh training facility and were going up. but its a hike for you. we live for these clases even if its repetative.

Steamhead (in transit)

We do our best

to attend classes when they are held in our area. Sometimes in the summer we can do a road trip, but not during the heating season.

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