Oil vs Propane

Unknown

You're right Scott. The annual cleaning [checkup] is a necessity but the 20 minute cleanup of a Knight is nowhere near the cost of maintaining an oil boiler.

Please don't think that I am against oil. I believe that oil is a good fuel and some of the new equipment out there will show us some impressive features. I do think that at this moment, the gas modcom is the right choice.

Rik

Oil vs Propane

I've learned quite a lot by reading this website (it really is quite a valuable resource), particularly with regard to modern equipment which as a homeowner I might never have been able to learn about unless I happened to pick the right professional out of the phone book. Now I have a much better idea what to look for when it does come time to actually pick a professional.

One thing I'd like to get opinions on are the merits of going with propane or oil heat. Propane would be with a Buderus or possibly Viessmann Mod/Con boiler, and oil would most likely be with a Buderus G215 boiler. Looking at fuel costs first... if my math is correct: 85% AFUE and $2.60 a gallon oil is just about a wash with 95% AFUE and $2.00 a gallon propane. Do you think annual heating costs, in the long term, would indeed be equal? Is one or the other less likely to reach its AFUE in reality, or do you see relative fuel prices changing?

What about relative longevity of the boilers?

Assume the system is constant circulation with panel radiators and TRVs, design heatloss of about 140,000 btu.

Thanks for your input!

Rik

Oil vs Propane

I've learned quite a lot by reading this website (it really is quite a valuable resource), particularly with regard to modern equipment which as a homeowner I might never have been able to learn about unless I happened to pick the right professional out of the phone book. Now I have a much better idea what to look for when it does come time to actually pick a professional.

One thing I'd like to get opinions on are the merits of going with propane or oil heat. Propane would be with a Buderus or possibly Viessmann Mod/Con boiler, and oil would most likely be with a Buderus G215 boiler. Looking at fuel costs first... if my math is correct: 85% AFUE and $2.60 a gallon oil is just about a wash with 95% AFUE and $2.00 a gallon propane. Do you think annual heating costs, in the long term, would indeed be equal? Is one or the other less likely to reach its AFUE in reality, or do you see relative fuel prices changing?

What about relative longevity of the boilers?

Assume the system is constant circulation with panel radiators and TRVs, design heatloss of about 140,000 btu.

Thanks for your input!

Big Ed

Fuel Choice

My choice would be fuel oil over LP. One reason is safey .LP at my home would scare me . LP is different then natral gas since it puddles near the ground waiting for a spark.

Gas I would guess would always cost more after deregulation since it is the cream off the oil fields . And over the years inland industry has be switching to gas from coal to meet goverment pollutiant guidelines. Just my guess.

A G215 would out last any condening boiler..But in 20 year new will be better anyway..

Rik

Safety is a good point. But, we do have both LP and Oil at home now (LP for stove, on demand DHW, and a handy line out to the BBQ.) So if we went with LP for everything, we could actually get the oil tanks out of our basement.

If I'm following, you think LP prices will fare worse (higher) than heating oil in the future compared to today?

Robert O'Brien

Forget AFUE

it's next to useless. Did you allow for the 35% difference in BTU/Gal between fuel oil and LPG? The modulation is what would make the difference rather than the condensing in even considering LP

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Joe Brix

Cost of system

I think you have to factor in the added cost of a good condensing boiler over an oil boiler. Can you get LP @ $2/gal durring the heating season? Maybe a 500 gal burried LP tank would help you buy in bulk before the peak price of the season, but a burried LP tank is not cheap or do-able in all cases. If it were me, I'd go LP if I must have direct vent, leverage LP for other appliances, and burry a large tank so it was not an eye sore.

Ken D.

Oil- propane

Oil and propane are both made out of the same stuff, so the prices generally follow each other.

JB_8

LP

Will the LP tank have to be replaced every 10 Yrs?????? Or Tested???? Will it be outside where a lot of leafs or brush gets on it and on fire when you are not at home ???

lchmb

.02 cents

If it were my home I would be sticking with fuel oil. I will state that both product's done in a professional manor are safe. Oil does have one advantage over gas, you can choose who you purchase your product from. I will say if you decide to purhase the Buderus oil boiler to purchase the R2107 control and get the most you can from the system...

joel_19

Math

Math is the perfect science but only if you fill in all the blanks and the big one is that oil has 140kBTU per gallon and propane about 93,000BTU.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rik

Full calculation

I was intending to include the BTU per gallon, but didn't have the exact numbers in front of me, so didn't write them in. Here's what I'm looking at:

Oil = 140,000 BTU/gal * 85% / $2.60/gal = 45,770 BTU/$

LP = 93,000 BTU/gal * 95% / $2.00/gal = 44,170 BTU/$

So, based on that math and those estimated prices alone, Oil has a 3.6% advantage. It sounds like maybe that comparison is pretty fair, and there is no real consensus about one of their prices being better in the future? I have heard from our fuel supplier (and I do have multiple choices in this area for both Oil and LP delivery) that LP prices tend to be more stable than oil... gradually going up over time rather than like a roller coaster.

I have not asked about periodic LP tank replacement - that is definitely something I will ask about. I don't see the scales being tipped to one fuel over the other in a major way. One additional factor for us would be piece of mind from having a wall hung boiler on the ground floor vs an oil boiler in the basement after going through a flood last summer. Perhaps we could strengthen an area to put on oil boiler on the ground floor. Any issues with running oil from tanks in the basement to a boiler on the ground floor? We would definitely go with the R2107 controller... if the boiler does stay in the basement, how far can the controller be placed from the unit - upstairs? Is there efficiency to be lost or gained by putting a Buderus G215 on the ground floor with direct vent vs. in the basement through an existing chimney thats probably 35-40 ft tall?

Robert O'Brien

How

often will the 142 be condensing? If you have Fin-tube,not as much as you may think.The advantage will be in the modulation

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Uni R_3

I disagree...

"How often will the 142 be condensing? If you have Fin-tube, not as much as you may think."

You can't make blanket statements like that. It really depends - and a simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of heating days are a long way from design conditions. You're feeding a myth that has perpetuated around here for years that simply isn't true.

I had existing fin-tube and switched from an old oil-fired boiler to a modulating condensing boiler. The kitchen is awaiting radiant so in the process of changing boilers about 4K of emitter was disabled and removed and not yet replaced. That should have made things somewhat worse.

You know what? I condensed all winter - even when we went below design it was still dripping like a sailor after shore leave.

Ragu_5

Thank you for an excellent post, Rik!

I think that you have really hit the nail on the head with this one, and I think that we will get some great responses.

My gut, intellect, training and experience tell me that you are in the perfect position for a mod/con gas unit; panel rads with TRV's, constant circulation and outdoor reset.

Robert is right on when he says: "Modulation will be the key"; make only the heat that you need, and no more than that.

The idea (Joe Brix?) of a buried propane tank is sound; you can own the tank and buy propane from the supplier of your choice, at the pricing time of your choice.

I am looking forward to further comments from both manufacturers (hint!) and also other experienced engineers/installers/contractors. I would love to see the math done by others that sways this issue one way or the other, as I really don't know of any definitive survey that has ever been done to date.

Thank you Rik!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rik

My pleasure

You are more than welcome. I've been following this site for a while, lots of interesting topics every day, and hoping a comparison like this would come up. Finally bit the bullet and asked myself. Thanks for your encouragement, and I hope your enthusiasm will indeed be contagious.

sg_4

re

I did this same math a few years ago, and my propane costs were much higher than your figures, it was not even close. Propane, as I as paying it then, was actually more per gallon than oil. Consequently there was no number at which propane made sense.

Unknown

I tried doing the math, as you did, prior to installing my Knight last fall. I replaced an old American-Std dry base boiler [definitely not 85%] and actually expected to find my fuel costs to average out about the same, considering the difference in BTU/Gal and cost of propane.

I just had my last fill of the heating season. My total fuel costs are $1475.80 compared to $2329.41 last year after a March fill and $2708.94 the prior year.

In addition, I don't have the expense of an annual cleaning and maintenance.

The obvious difference is modulation and condensing. I sell the Knight as a rep. in the upstate New York area. I know what the boiler is supposed to do but I'm still amazed to watch the Knight and see it modulate down to furnish 130°F water on a day when it is -10°F outside, after it has brought the building up to temperature and is maintaining temp. Water is returning at 120°F and definitely condensing.

Damn, I love this stuff!!!

chapchap70_2

foul

I don't know what the AFUE rating for an old American Standard Boiler is but I think that less than half of the heat created by the burner is utilized to heat the home with that old behemoth. Efficiency wasn't an issue when they installed those things; longevity was. (And they do last)

There is oil fired retrofit equipment that when properly installed would easily reduce heating bills from an old (and probably oversized) American Standard boiler by 50%.

Scott Larabee

Don,

I have to take issue with your statement about not having the expense of an annual maintanance on the gas boiler. As a rep for the boiler, you should know that it is every bit as important, if not more so, to have a gas boiler inspected annually to be sure it is safe! It may not require a "cleaning", but every gas appliance should be checked every year.

Scott