boiler advice from The Wall

Paul Pollets

Geoff, are you from BC, if so, email me at:

paul042005@advancedradiant.com

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Dave_4

boiler advice from The Wall

I'm a HO in need of a boiler for a new construction house, long story short my General Contractor is 'gone' and with the rough-in framing complete and just starting plumb/electric/HVAC. I'm trying to get another GC lined up, but various people need money and a mess at the bank. Until I find a GC jump into this shituation and I trust, I'm taking one day at a time.

I have gotten three professional quotes with three different options. Between the three the house average heat loss calc was 106K. Each guy presents to know their stuff as it pertains to what brand they know and like, I have confidence in each one of them.

Option A)
2007 Pinacle Peerless PI-140, @ 129 MBH, AFUE 92% {$3300}

Option
never fired 1999 Vitogas 050 ECV-100 @ 84 MBH, AFUE 83% (used this unit for trade show demostration only and Viessmann change colors from all Orange to Grey trimmed in Orange, he's trying to get rid of it) {$1800}

Option C)
2007 Crown Bimini BWC120 , @107MBH, AFUE 95.2% {$3200}

Any advice on which boiler? new mod-con vs an older CI?

clammy

htp instead of pinnancle

I would probalbly go with a mucnhkin instead of the peerless i believe it has better opition like a vision one kit that will give a outdoor reset ,and domestic hot water with use of a external indirect tank .The other plus are no masonary chimmey and no combustion air ducting needed which also means that you can tighten up your projects building envelope a bit,not to sound wierd but has any one performed a good heat lose on this project and how many sq.ft is it?On one other note munchkins are very quite as quite as a small dorm refregerator and also are condensing modulating,what type of heat emmitters are you planning to use ? if baseboard do your self a favor and size it for the lowest possible water temp on design day and remenber to calaculate the temperture drop acoss the baseboard from room to room and size accordingly (end of the loop more baseboard because of lower water temp)or use some 1/2 pex and manifold station and do home runs each room now the temp drop from room to room is out of the equation and everybody gets the same supply temp also if going with baseboard use a light commerical baseboard like slant fin 80 instead of 30 better output.It also would be wise to take a look at european panel raditors could be feed with 1/2 pex depending on room heat lose and they work well with lower water temps and you can install trv on them to really fine tune temp controll from room to room with no t/stat or zone valves .the wonderful things you can do with hydronics never ends but always should lead to total indoor comfort peace and good luck clammy ps here's my munckin in my own home

Dave_4

Thanks for the response and the pic but I'm looking for advice on these specific boilers. I called on the couple of pro HVAC guys that were recommended by electrical/plumbing fellas I can trust. They offer these products, thought I would bounce this off The Wall to tip the scale in a direction.

House is 2100sqft. basement ~2100' pex 4" cement, and mainfloor ~2100 pex in 1.5 gypcrete. ~500 pex 4" cement in garage. This is already done, everything else is up to the guy behind Option A,B or C.

Between the three the Heat loss was a corresponding 124k, 85k, and 110k. (I took the average 106k)

Rick

ps. and a sorry to Geoff McDonell, first message was my user error.

mif

which boiler to choose

First question- which manufacturer has parts and pieces close to your location?
Second question- which of your experts can evidence factory training with the equipment they propose.
Remember, no cast iron atmospheric boiler is a good value in our present economy, no matter how cheaply you can purchase the appliance.

Uni R_3

Heatloss

Why don't you calculate your heatloss for yourself? Did they show you formal heatloss calculations?

ALH_4

Heat Loss

I would use the guy who gave you the 85MBH heat loss number, as I think this is probably the closest unless you have a particularly high heat load. Both the Crown and Viessmann boilers are excellent, though comparing apples to oranges. The Bimini is probably a bit large for your home. Do you have copies of the heat loss calculations or just the numbers?

I have never been that impressed with the Munchkin/Pinnacle design. The materials of construction are fairly cheap in my opinion. Hopefully that's not the guy who gave you the 85MBH heat loss number. ;-)

Weezbo

This is not what Geoff would do.

therefore ,i know you are someone else. *~/:)

my personal preference would be to go with the boiler from the V crowd. that being said not because of price and not based on the widely divergent heat loss accounts.

however , it is because that you have the opportunity to Insulate to r-40 in the walls and 60-70 in the lid, super vapor barrier, controled ventilation...and i am thinking right about there,... the heat loss will be much more in line with the smaller boiler.

Dave_4

yes apologies to Geoff McDonell

I missed changing it. On my browser new topics and replies get auto filled in from the last message I view. (and I didn't preview it, I should have but didn't)


Back to the question I'm struggling with, I did check;
Q1. manufacturer has parts and pieces close, OK all local suppliers in my area.
Q2. experts have training, yes this is what they sell and know the equipment.
Q3. only the numbers on the heat loss.

Considering if I level the requirement to 85k heat loss, for my specific deal...
(modified Option A) 2007 Pinnacle Peerless PI-80, @ 74 MBH, AFUE 92% {$2400}
Option never fired 1999 Vitogas 050 ECV-100 @ 84 MBH, AFUE 83% {$1800}

Initial cost difference $600. Based on Energy Star calculator simple payback of initial additional cost will be 1.3 years. Should be a simple numbers answer then right = (modified Option A) 1.3 year payback, more efficient, predicted to save money, etc. Maybe I have given to much consideration to the Viessmann one, but I also got a quote for a new Viessman model. Wow, a new one was triple in cost.

I have seen the work of each, quality accross the board. Yes I realize that these are apples to oranges in name and type. But which option ? I don't think I can lose either way.

STEVEN MARKS

Not that ere suppose to discuss pricing but are those #'s just for the price of the boiler? Cant be installed?

Dave_4

yes, just the price of the boiler

Each had different installer $ numbers and somewhat different design layouts. The Boiler is the one constant.

Thoughts?

William Faust

for a non-pro

"no cast iron atmospheric boiler is a good value in our present economy, no matter how cheaply you can purchase the appliance." This is going to sound really dumb, but I thought that all boiler were cast iron. What else are they made of?

Joannie_12

Not Dumb

Not a dumb question at all. Boilers can be stainless steel, copper, steel, aluminum and cast iron. In general, it's the not the metal that would mean "less efficient". Any atmospheric unit would not be very efficient, compared to more modern technologies that allow for higher efficiency. I think that was the main point of the other post.

William Faust

dumb and dumberer

Okay, in juxtaposition to atmospheric, what other types of boilers are there? I'd like to know in case my boiler should ever go kaput. Thanks.

Nick Ciasullo

Boiler Choices

Rick,

Allow me to introduce myself. I am the Viessmann Rep for the Philadelphia area. Given the three choices (and only the three choices you have in front of you) I would choose the Peerless Pinnacle, and attach an outdoor reset control.
Although the Vitogas appears to be an interesting choice because of the low initial cost, since it is not a condensing boiler, you will pay the difference in fuel costs in just a few short years. So I rule our product out.
The Bimini has no real track record in the industry yet, so it is too early to tell what the quality is that you are buying (that being said, Crown is a very good boiler manufacturer and I have never heard of someone being dissapointed with their Crown purchase).
The Pinnacle has a few more years under it's belt than the Crown, and I am not aware of any current issues with the unit.
Lastly, as the Viessmann rep, I would encourage you to look at the Vitodens 200, if you were looking at the Vitogas based on the Viessmann name. This would be a condensing boiler, as are the other two offerings in front of you.

Steamhead (in transit)

On gas-fired steam like you have

some boilers are available with power-driven burners. Most such boilers are designed for oil firing and have a power gas burner option from the factory. This avoids losses at the base of the typical atmospheric gas boiler like you now have, since the flame is mostly surrounded by water-backed metal. It also mixes the gas and air better. These will gain you a few AFUE points.

On hot-water, some boilers are designed to recover the latent heat in the flue gases by condensing them. These are more efficient but also more complicated.

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William Faust

again

So, when referring to a boiler, the term "atmospheric" means that the burner(s) is completely outside of the boiler?

I toured the Huntington (sp?) Waste Recovery plant (trash to steam) in Huntington, Long Island back around 1991. I was working for the international operation of CIGNA's surety bond department. We had provided performance and payment bonds to guarantee a subcontract for the boiler fabrication. The subcontractor was a Florida firm, but the fabrication was actually done by a Venezuelan company. The owner, as a young man, was an engineer who fled Lithuania when the Soviets came in and took over. He was not only a brilliant engineer, but also a good businessman. He was smart enough to create a group of related companies that looked like a bowl of spagetti on an organization chart.

The boiler is the most incredibly massive thing, maybe eight or more stories tall with a huge footprint. Let's put it this way, it was in a large factory type bldg. Anyway, I believe that its burners may have been on the inside. I managed to see it because we were guarantors. If they give tours to the public, it's well worth it.

Frank, let me know when you are next in Phila. Lunch or dinner on me, or with my family if you have the time. The lovely Naoka (sp?) invited of course.

Steamhead (in transit)

Atmospheric

refers to a certain type of gas burner. Remember those Bunsen burners in science class? The burners in your boiler work the same way, by shooting a jet of gas thru a venturi to pull in air that mixes with the gas before it burns. A more accurate term is "atmospheric injection".

All atmospheric gas boilers that I know of have the burners mounted below the cast-iron sections.

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Tombig_2

Wow

It's pretty refreshing to hear a rep tell you NOT to use their product but in this case Nick was spot on. He really is looking out for your best interests.

Bill, You have an entire house with low temperature radiation, i.e. radiant floors. You would be doing yourself a disservice if you install anything but a modulating, condensing boiler. A cast iron, atmoshpheric boiler (open burners and natural draft) will operate at efficiencies in the mid eighties. It needs to keep it's water temperature above 140*F to prevent damage to itself. Your concrete slabs and concrete overpour heat emitters will heat will heat your house most of the time with water temps in the 90's. Here's where it gets good. The condensing boilers on the market, like the Pinnacle and the Crown mentioned INCREASE their efficiency as the circulating water gets colder. Think mid to high 90%. That's why Nick recommended AGAINST his own product.

You want a modcon boiler. You want outdoor reset so the water is the hottest ONLY when it's the coldest outside. You'll want to use your boiler to provide your domestic hot water needs so you can take advantage of it's efficiency rather than use a standard 80% (if that) hot water heater.

I don't know if the Crown boiler has these features built in. The Peerless does not. I think the control module (Munchkin's Vision control I believe) might be available from Peerless by now. Insist on it.

If you can, look into the Buderus GB, Weil-McLain Ultra, and Lochinvar Knight. All these boilers (and many more) have outdoor reset and DHW logic built in to their controls in a plug and play setup. Look them up on the web. Do your homework and tell your heating contractor what YOU want.

Good luck, Tom Goebig