Leaks in snowmelt system

Anonymous_4

First off, I'm choosing to remain anonymous for this thread because of the possibility that legal action will one day result from this situation. I'd like to get your advice without further exposure.

I am a long time member of the Wall, I have posted questions and answers for several years. We did a small carwash facility last year that used a pair of Trinity Ti-200 boilers to make both snowmelt and wash water through an Ergomax. At the end of the construction (in warm weather) the facility ownership had heartburn about the total investment we had in the project and negotiated a lower final payment. We did agree to this lower amount (although we should not have). We also agreed to properly protect the system with antifreeze. This left our small company strapped for cash. We did not have the $500-$600 for a barrel of glycol. I kept thinking that cashflow would improve before freezing weather and that there would be time to get the system adequately protected. That never happened. There are several below grade 5/8" PEX loops that do not hold pressure at this point. We did have a power outage during an ice storm that stopped the water from moving.

I have talked to our insurance company and they will send out an adjuster to begin to help us understand what kind of support we may have from them. Certainly one option would be to break up all the concrete, relay the loops and repour the slabs, but this is also the most costly option.

At ISH I saw a booth for an epoxy pipe-lining system used on potable copper lines. Should we be exploring the option of sealing leaks from the inside? My first reaction to this idea is that it's a Band-Aid type repair. Not really appropriate for a longterm system.

I believe we are responsible for the leaks- but I don't yet know how much our insurance will help. If they don't help much, the amount of cash outlay could sink our company. This would put a 30+ year, 16 employee contractor out of business.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Please be gentle- I already know where we went wrong.

[Deleted User]

Bummer dude...

You could spend a LOT of time on a jack hammer only to end up doing total replacement any way.

There are no quick and easy fixes to frozen and broken tube circuits. You could spend time and money pumping hot water into the circuits and watching with a FLIR camera, and break out those points and attempt repair, but be fore warned, only the largest of leaks may show on the IR. You may have to do it numerous times, and its not cheap to do.

In the future, consider using SOMETHING for antifreeze, even if its just windshield washer fluid... Its better than NOTHING, and the chances of having a relief valve popping off while its hot and vaporized are less than the chances of doing what happend to you and your company...

Also, never negotiate a price after the fact. That alone could take a small compay out in the blink of an eye. Pull equipment and move on, but NEVER renogiate after the fact.

I feel for your employees, but you brought most of this angst upon yourself through mismanagement...

Tough love.

ME

Ray Landry_3

Have you ever considered using an ultrasonic leak detector with compressed air in the lines to try to pinpoint the leakers? That may save some of the concrete cutting. Sorry to hear about your troubles

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

mikea23

Make the insurace claim and replace the system.

In most situations with insurance your insurance company will only deal with you or another insurance company not the building owner. The building owner will have to contact his insurance company as well and put in a claim with them. They will pay there cliant and then litigate with your insurance company. This is normal procedure. The building owner has no option but to report a claim if it turns out that it is your fault he wont have any rate issues. Just like a car accident if you get rearended you call your company first and let them process the claim.

This pervents one important thing Lawyers, insurance companys hate them (rightfully so). The building owner will probably want loss of income and anything else he can think up but once the 2 insurance companys get involved most of that BS stops. If you file the claim this way You should be able to walk away with only minimum costs.

I have had 3 insurance claims in 15 years we did this on all of them and nobody got hurt not me not the building owners. I had one refuse to call his insurance company but I was firm with him and he eventualy did.

This also protect you from litigation the insurance companys will not pay anything until the building owner signs off that this is a full and final setlement.


Good luck
Mike A

Mike Thomas_2

Pool leak detecting

We find leaks in pool plumbing all the time. Get a pair of Geophones, about $400 new. Use compresssed air and blow out the water, then just blow air in the system. The air will gurgle as it leaves the pipe and enters the saturated ground, just like blowing on a straw in a soft drink cup. The gugling sound is easily recognized with this big stethescope. Keep moving the phones around until the sound is loudest, and you will be within inches of it. Or just call a pool company who has the equipment. This time of year could be slow for them.

Weezbo

sorry to hear that.

i know you put alot of work into your project,lets move on to what to do..

low pressure will allow the leak to be more easily identifiable.ultra sound it the ticket.

the other slightyly devious deal in the cogs is that while you may find and repair many leaks there may be many more.such has been my experience with one snow and ice melt about 29 years ago.

if some lines are not suspect can hold 100psi air and water..that would help a group. about 5 6 months ago there was a post on this subject and there was a simple fairly reasonable priced ultra sound machine on a wand. this would likely be at least some definite thing that you could recoup some dollars with in the future...as this is not the only case of something going awry with systems underground. let me see if i can find it for you.

bummer it must have been further back. it had a telephone number on the wand..i have to think it is before my new computer when my other one crashed. someone might see your post and repost the picture of the leak detector.

Simply Rad_2

Leak Detection

I had a underground leak this fall and we were able to find it will a leak detection company.

Try http://www.americanleakdetection.com/

Good Luck Jeffrey

Arthur Binder

leak

Do you by any chance have pictures of the tubing layout. My company makes it a policy to take pictures of every layout we do under concrete and stick it in the customer's file just in case. Some customers do not check glycol levels before the heating season yearly as we request. Sometimes we find out they have altered the system in some way (especially if they have a "maintenance" man) and drained the system/didn't know the strange water color was due to glycol). Pictures could help if you can pressure test individual loops to identify good/bad loops to reduce time searching. We also have had luck pushing water through the system then air behind and listening for the gurgling sound. Good luck and keep pictures in mind for the future.