Control Wiring

Paul Rohrs

Is it in your proposals as such? Billable item to your customer, or better yet, a billable item that is a deduct for the electrician on the job? The wiring portion can chew up a few hours. We need to be compensated for another portion of our professionalism...yes?

Paul

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=353&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Paul Rohrs

How does your company handle this?

It seems like I have been spending quite a bit of time wiring lately. It’s a part of the job I enjoy, but with time demands, I’m finding I should be doing other things.

I have always stated in my proposals that:

Line voltage by electricians

Low voltage and sensor wiring by electricians

Final wiring by installing contractor. (I will make the final connections)

I’m thinking I should be offering this as an option on my proposals. My problem is that each job is different and have different requirements. I can, and will spend quite a bit of time on Visio to lay out the electrical diagram that compliments the controls and control strategy. I am just not very trusting that sparky will get it right the first time and some portion of controls could be damaged if not done correctly. The worse part is that if done incorrectly, I have to invest the time to deconstruct the existing wiring to find the problem, then usually re-wire the whole thing anyway.

I am just looking to create a win-win situation. I have met a few electricians that have potential, and given a little bit of time, could come through for us.

What portion of the wiring do you allow for? Is it an option on your proposals so that you are being compensated for your knowledge of how this all “comes together”.

I believe that hydronic controls are going to be a significant portion of our profession now and in the future.

One of the ideas I am pursuing is pre-building the control panel in-house, bringing the rough wiring from individual J-boxes to the control, so that all I have to do on site is bring sensor wiring to the sensor wiring j-box, line voltage and circulator (or ZV) to that box, and aquastat and DHW pump to that j-box. I am going to cross train one of our HVAC service technicians that has a flare for wiring. I'll try and post some pictures later.

Thanks for the input.

Paul


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Weezbo

couple ideas...

one is Do it yourself." one is i dont do wiring". and one that does really help a younger tech is, you bid 40 jobs for him or so and show little by little the variation in miles of MC vs. invisible wiring. that may get "same" on your jobs and save you having to drag another batch of tools and parts pieces and materials With on every job.or maybe even all of the above.

ultimately, you have to do any checkup service or repair. so, if you have, a "system of straight" then, it is going to be much easier to twist off a taco zone valve and spin in a new one or turn off a switch test the suspected cause maybe tighten a screw and your out and back to the work you already had to do with the least amount of hassle....if you let someone else do it and its joe simple it is on them to go fix it.... i normally wire it so it will fire and single zone the system prove fire and preform properly .even when, someone else is doing the wiring...:) sorta "cleaning it up' because the maid is comming:)

Ragu

Around Here, Paul...

In this part of Maine, Sparky doesn't want any part of what we do. I do my own and I'm leaning towards raceways and conduit with a limited amount of MC cable.

It seems that really good controls electricians are already employed by industry (paper mills etc.) Most Sparkies around here who are independent are "Romex Electricians" and don't want the EMT,MC cable,controls, sensors and 24 volt stuff. Too different and too much additional thinking (some days I really can't blame them!).

I just learned that in Mass. (where I trained), electricians have to do the whole thing. Any guys from Mass. care to comment?

ed wallace

wiring

In Ma. under the oil burner code oil burner techs can wire from the firomatic on to the burner and all controls after pulling a permit but for low voltage we need a sparky

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ragu

Ed...Really?

All the control wiring has to be done by the Sparkmeister? How has that been sitting with you guys down there?

I checked out your ad in "Find A Pro" and I see you are in Watertown; home of my Alma Mater NEFI.

ed wallace

wiring

yes it was a consetion to the sparkys when the code was rewritten

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Rohrs

Work in progress

Here is the start of the rough wiring. I had the box built and laminated. I didn't want any exposed wiring on the Tekmar TN4 control. It will be completely pre-wired before it gets to the job-site.

I left enough room on the side for the job binder and
8 x 10 picture frame. (Good place for advertising)

Hopefully I can hand the wiring schematic to our HVAC service man that is cross-training, and he can finish it.

Regards,

PR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

EBEBRATT-Ed

I'll put my 2 cents in as a master electrician and a HVAC tech. I agree, most electricians don't really want to bother with the control wiring.

MA. has a seperate licence(s) "C" contractor and "D" controls journeymen for low voltage work. Most of the people that have this license are doing telephone or fire alarms-that sort of stuff.

I think CT has several classifications of electrical work as well.

The problem with low voltage (and the codes and inspectors are slowly catching up with this) is A. wires thrown across suspended ceilings and not tied up with wire tys. And B. Miles of abandoned cable left in ceilings.

The problem with abandoned cable is that the inspectors (and the code) don't want this stuff left in the ceilings because it is "fuel for a fire" if one gets started. Not to mention the smoke.

It is actually code now to remove all abandoned wire (unless it is tagged for future use)

We usually do our own wiring (we have two active electricians) but we are doing a large job now that we subbed it out.

We are having the electrician on the job site pull and tag all the wiring. We terminate and start-up.

This seems to be the best compromise.

Low voltage has always been in the electrical code and is supposed to be done by an electrician but this is probably not enforced in many areas.

In MA. an oil tech can replace a boiler or burner and run 10' of emt and make the reconnect and wire the controls. If the burner/boiler need a new circuit or on a new job the electrician is supposed to do it.


Ed

gerry gill

glad i live in ohio

where were still allowed to wire our own boilers...i wouldn't want anyone else doing it..

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Tom_35

We do 100% of our wiring

We tried on our first job to have the electrician do the wiring. Just gave up on it when it became obvious that he was lost. We completed the wiring and have done it all since.

Makes it much easier to coordinate the installation and we assume the responsibility for everything working.

We're about to complete a job that has been going on for nearly 3 years and the controls are pretty involved. The electrician on the job was looking at the hydronic and control panel and told our lead tech that he had better not ever get a call to come out for an electrical problem with our stuff.

Tom Atchley
Ft. Smith, AR

John Ruhnke

We like to do the control wires...........

Paul,

I don't include wiring in my original price. I find that it makes my price look higher then my competition who doesn't wire. I include a electrical diagram hand done. I do it on Visio if it is for the RPA's system showcase. After I am awarded the job, I try to talk the client into letting us wire the project. I am not licensed in Connecticut to wire so I tell the client that it is always up to the electrician doing the other wiring work to let me do it. If the electrician gives me permision then I will have my guys wire. I have less problems this way. I find more mistakes when the electrician wires it because he doesn't understand the controls as well as we do. The electrician pulls a permit for the whole project, his work and ours. The electrical inspector looks at and pass's the job just as if the electrician did the work. I have had no problems so far in ten years of doing it this way.

John Ruhnke

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Leo

In Mass

In Mass as already stated we can work from the firematic down. We can also replace any defective part at any time. If a new zone is added we are suppose to have an electrician wire both high and low voltage to it.

I have an electrician friend who is also an assistant inspector. The biggest reason we are restricted is burner hacks of the past who ruined it for everyone. I still encounter evidcence of this on occasion. Exposed connections, switched neutrals, wires left hanging.

Leo

[Deleted User]

We do it all...

from the SSU through the equipment. That way, if somethings not working, it's OUR responsibility, and there is NO guessing as to lines of responsibility. I've had my share of old fogey electricians ask to see my electrical license, to wit I reply, "OK, you wire it, and when they call me on December 24th at midnight telling me they are cold, I'll give them YOUR home phone number..."

I offer to alow them an open box inspection prior to calling for their final inspection. It usually turns them around. In fact, I can't think of a single job where it hasn't been effective...

ME

Reed

I am lucky

enough to have an elctrician that is very knowledgable about wiring boiler controls and wires 90% of all my boilers. Sometimes The electrician that usually wires my boilers for me is just to busy and I don't have the time myself to do it I will ask the electrician on the job if they can wire it. When the answer is , well I don't usually wire the boilers but I do this one, say thank you and wire it yourself.

[Deleted User]

Absotively!

Posilutely! Don't touch NOTHING unless you're making money at it. ANd yes, well tell the GC to expect us to wire the whole thing. It is then his option to ask the sparky for a credit.

ME

jrc2905

Some Mass. towns are now enforcing the electrical permit process for replacement systems. They want the burner tech to pull the electrical permit. The problem I have with this is each town has a different approach to this, some want it, and some don’t. I think it has to do with money for the inspection department, which I can understand in these times.
I have some town inspectors who are 3-4 months behind in inspections, this will add to that. When I do a job I now call and speak to the inspector to find out what they want because they are all different.
Then you have the burner code that allows for emergency installs with no permits, so if you do the job, then they want an electrician what are they going to do then.
I think the whole situation is getting out of control, some towns want plumbers for domestic water some want electricians, some don’t care. I do HVAC repair how does this apply to repair of AC and gas electrical systems. Then I tell the homeowner they need a plumber or electrician for the job and the job is done but no permit is pulled, it is the only reason I hired them and they refuse to get a permit.
And now they go and increase the plumbing and electrical apprenticeship from 3 to 5 years, I have customers asking me to do plumbing work because they can not even get their calls returned from plumbing companies.
This whole permit situation aggravates me. I want to do it right but in the real word it does not work that way.
I think oil burner techs need to test for another class of license that allows them to do electrical work on systems, low and high voltage. How come oil burner techs do not have to take code update classes, if they are pulling electrical permits?
This is a sore spot for me, but I would like your opinions, oh yeah and then there are places like HD who sell to unlicensed homeowners