Mr. Milne goes to Washington.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the new energy conservation laws, but that they inadvertently screwed up the minimum requirements that only one company can meet. Have them lower the standard minimum efficiency to 90%.

Have them make the law effective with no cap for commercial jobs and multifamily housing projects.

ME

ScottMP

Next week

I will be traveling to Washington DC with our PHCC chapter. We will be meeting with Senators and Congressman and dicussing subjects that effect our trade. Much of this is geared towards bills and legislation that dealwiht our trade and small business.

I am not much of a politician and am not sure what I will discuss. After thinking about it, I think I will lean towards fuel and what are doing for the future. Our President talks about cutting our addication to oil. So what are we to do then ? What will be our fuel of choice ?

I am looking for your opinions.

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Darin Cook_2

How About

No more heating equipment sold less than 90% efficient. How about heating systems themselves be built around a maximum temperature(such as the 167'in Europe). Building construction become more stringent. Such as from the first block up a definitive air exchange per hour for the house be calculated and built around and tested in the finished product. Most builders will give you the raised eyebrow if you ask them what ACH they are shooting for. Proper insulating practices. Most everyone likes to cheap out on the insulation package. These are just a few things that make huge differences in a persons home energy consumption.


Darin

Brad White_9

Don't bring a pencil, Scott. Bring an eraser....

I believe in the power of the marketplace. To that end I would stress the need to open competition and end quasi-monopolies, stop picking and choosing winners and losers.

End discussion of the windfall profits tax that has been brought up- it only affects domestic producers (a domestic tariff!) and gives foreign importers an edge.

Natural gas is essentially a by-product of the oil industry yet has it's own market dynamic. (It used to be burned off at the well-head as a nuisance.) It is the core of the condensing boiler market.

Promote low sulphur fuels (leaning condensing here) along with bio-fuels. Big thing here is about transporting small mixes is that you have to have a separate trucking system, holding system and small producers will be vying for pipeline time against 99% of the flow being standard petroleum. Gets the ICC involved.. what a mess.

I am so-so on tax credits and rebates- it is a shifting of OPM -other people's money- to pay for what the economic incentives of higher efficiency ought to do on their own. Another discussion for another day...

Not a rant (hope you did not take it as such). Just some thoughts.

I can appreciate Darin's thoughts too, in principle. But I do not like the idea of government dictating what the marketplace can offer. It can drive the price up and limit choice. Some appliances just do not have a payback. It is one component of a system...

My $0.02,

Brad

jackchips_2

If you haven't

been before Scott, it is just an amazing City. Hopefully you are staying right in DC. You can buy a transit ticket early in the morning and then travel to all the major attractions by getting on and off the bus.

Things worth seeing are: everything, but especially the Cathedral, the Holocaust Museum, Arlington Cemetery (see the changing of the guard), Fords Theater, the Kennedy Center, the White House, the Capital and so much more.

When Linda and I went we called our Congressman ahead of schedule, got an appointment and he assigned an aide to take us to the Capital. We got to ride the underground subway from the office building and had a private tour.

Oh yeah, politics. Ask them how you, as a small contractor can help them to address the energy situation in the Country and especially your area. Everyone else will be telling them what to do and maybe someone who seeks to help will end up with a closer relationship. A one time discussion will be forgotten but building a relationship will pay huge dividends.

Thanks for working for us.

Jack, a politician.

Empire_2

As mentioned above,...

Not only decrease to 90%, but give the people more incentive to upgrade to this higher efficiency equipment. As we all know money is tight and a larger tax credit would not only make it more attractive, but also further the presidents agenda of being less dependant on the fuel in which we burn. Currently with a $300.00 tax credit on ,..say a new furnace costing $5500.00, that like giving you a 600.00 credit on a new car. Yes it is a credit, but really does not match or make you feel good about your investment.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Also

Ditto to the other comments. Don't miss the WWII memorial, the Korean wall with its ghost-like images and the Vietnam wall of remembrance. Take a hankie!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JJ_4

Don't miss the Adams-Morgan District

The Adams-Morgan District is great for a night out. Lots of fun shops, bars and restaurants. It's a melting pot of cultures. I tried Jamaican food for the first time...it can be an adventure of its own. Take the Metro and walk a couple of blocks.

All work and no play? A person has to eat.

Brad White_9

Started out as a serious, business related trip

and sure enough, everyone else smells "junket!"

Here come the Red Light District recommendations, hang on...

Jim Pompetti

Mike

Years ago during the "last"fuel crisis all federal building were supposed to be set at 68 ,check while your there, see were the good gentlemen set their thermostats, today. Not to make our friends in the plumbing industry mad at us,but how can we only flush 1.6 gallons and shower with 20 gallons a minute. From my experience the rich are wasteful and the poor are cold. Let abusers of energy pay,so that granddad and mom can be warm.Good luck.

Joannie_11

Brad

I couldn't agree more. Well said!

ScottMP

You all forget so Quickly

I was just down in Washington with the family in December. Took the tour of the capital building just like Jack. Saw the monuments and yes got a little teared up. The new World War II memorial got me chocked up as I thought of my Dad who was a young man in the war.

I REALLY appreciate everyones comments. I really like the idea of asking what I can do to help. Thats an interesting perspective.

Mark, you really feel by keeping the standard effeciency to 90% is better for the country ?

Scott




To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jackchips_2

Ah yes,

how soon some of us forget.

At least you still remember what happened all the way back in December.

Nice to be young.

Jack (I think)

Guy_6

Run

While you're down there, will you consider running for office? You're hard working , intelligent, sensible....wait, you will never fit in. Never mind.

GW

GMcD

Energy Standards

Why not ask for clear unambiguous energy performance standards for buildings, and equipment. Example: all single family residential houses up to 2500 SF shall use not more than 5 kwh/SF/year (regardless of climate and location - subject to discussion). All single family residential houses of over 2500 SF shall not use more than 3.5 kwh/SF/year. Discuss energy rates and how they are applied- baseline all energy rates so the more you use, the higher the rate you pay. The less you use, the lower the rate you pay.

Don't crap on me for the numbers I use above- it is an example- change the energy use # to whatever you want, as long as it's a single enforceable number than can be easily measured and documented. The Energy Codes written that way leave the designers open to design anything they want using whatever equipment and systems they want, as long as the overall building energy use does not exceed that limit. Simple, clear, unambiguous.

Empire_2

Geoff,..I can hear you, but

In order to comply it takes money to accomplish these gols and in this day and ecconomical climate not everyone has the resources to totally update/ insulate/ and reconfigurate ( I made that up) their situation. If I could use 5 KW/Hr to heat the house and yes that to is just an example,...Then Hell yea I would, but at what cost. I think thats where ther debate lies. What will it cost to save energy and will it leave me enough to put gas in the car to take Johney to school...........Very fine line.

S Ebels

Brad

Efficiency standards have their place. Look what the appliance industry has done in response to KWH consumption for residential refrigeration. By raising the base efficiency available to J Q Public, the most basic models of refrigerators are nearly twice as energy effective as they were before the standard was implemented. The pricing of the friges themselves barely wiggled because everyone had to play on the same level floor. Done right, it works. Done wrong, like I'm starting to feel this new energy bill is, it doesn't help a thing.

Brad White_9

I do not disagree

with the notion of energy standards, just that they were set by an industry not the government. The reason they work is that the market prevailed.

For example, I paid extra for an energy efficient set of appliances and that was my decision. My point being that I had a choice, not one made for me by someone I never met. But I want everyone to have that choice. Check SUV sales lately?

S Ebels

90%

90% is good if all fuel burning equipment is made to hit it. Right now there's a lot of stuff on the market that is doing good to hit 80 in the real world. Think about packaged rooftop units. Who in their right mind believes that those things sitting outside at -10* are really hitting 80 or even 70%? (that's another point I'll hit in a minute) An increase of 80 to 90 is 10% and relatively easy to attain. Going from 90 to 95 is a fair amount more difficult and adds a lot of expense for only 5% more. To me, it's the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush thing.

As for the rooftop issue, I'd like to see a law that all heating equipment that is fuel fired be required to be installed in the conditioned space of the building. Also that all duct work be treated in the same way. There is a huge amount of btu's wasted every year in heating and cooling due to lightly or poorly insulated duct in unconditioned spaces and it doesn't have to be that way. Designers and engineers have to be forced to account for equipment and duct within the structure or it's not going to happen. They say " It adds cost and it's too expensive" I say B---S---! It's a false economy to "save" money on an installation and then spend extra for the life of the building due to poor design of the HVAC system.

GMcD

For new construction

I meant to set standards for new construction. In other areas of the World the Gov't provides tax rebates and incentives to improve existing buildings and existing buildings, and when they are to be renovated then have to meet a less stringent standard compared to new construction. As I said in my post- pick a number, let's baseline an average of 100 newly constructed houses with Energy Star appliances, windows, etc. and at least start with something that can be achieved with some baby steps.

Yeah, costs money now, but saves money long term. You can pay me now, or you can pay me later, and keep on paying for the life of the house.

thp_8

80%

Here you go.
This one is for you Steve.

adayton_2

ROFLMAO at 80% photo....

lol...lol...lol...Now just how difficult is it to construct an (heavily) INSULATED shell around roof top units with appropriate CONTROLLED shuttered ducting to direct airflow in/out of the xchangers AND seperately CONTROLLED shuttered ducting for the burner combustion IN/combustion stack OUT of the unit?? I would bet the RECURRING substantial savings realized in heating AND air conditioning fuel costs would provide excellent ROI payback on the ONE TIME cost of the shell/controls package.

Stick that into your legislative package and start seeing substantial reductions in Commercial fuel consumption.

Alfred

GMcD

Extend that thinking

S. Ebels said:

"They say " It adds cost and it's too expensive" I say B---S---! It's a false economy to "save" money on an installation and then spend extra for the life of the building due to poor design of the HVAC system."

Change the words "HVAC system" to "building envelope" or "glass" and find some really big bangs for the buck- stop the heat losses first, then design higher efficiency equipment and systems to serve it.

hr

SDHW should be a requirement

on all new construction.

Tax the bejeeze out of gas guzzler SUV's. $2500.00 and up guzzler tax to be applied to alternate energy projects around the nation. Along the lines of the program in Pitkin County , Colorado.

Why not a guzzler tax on trophy homes. If the home needs more than 150,000 btu, or a 2" gasline, buck up.

Performance based pay programs for all politicians, and Social Security like the rest of us, not the special "high dollar" retirement they now enjoy at the taxpayers expense.

Have a great trip.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

tom_49

I agree.

NEVER going to happen.

J.C.A._3

Aren't....

There enough windbags in D.C. now? Do we need another one?
Just kidding. (but really?) Your faithful employee. JCA

Mark Hunt

Yup


and don't forget SMALLER high efficiency heating and cooling plants will be needed.

Get the shell right and everyone benefits. (Well....probably not the power/fuel providers)

Mark H



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

Things to watch out for

First off, almost all 90+% equipment for sale in this country is gas-fired. Pushing this equipment now will be a windfall for gas utilities, strengthening their de facto monopolies. Think what this will do for pricing. Yes, I know they have plenty of high-efficiency oil-fired equipment in other countries, but it will take a while to get these approved for sale here once we get low-sulfur oil (assuming that doesn't get delayed). It makes no sense to require equipment that only one fuel can provide, when the provider is a monopoly that can raise prices at will.

Second, when everyone is ready to compete, require the highest-efficiency units for the lowest-efficiency distribution system type- scorched air.

Third, make an exception for steam boilers until they have been able to catch up (as Gasmaster). I have a big problem with telling the lady with a broken steam boiler that some government hack wants her to tear out her entire system just because it's steam.

I applaud your effort, but like many of us, I have zero confidence in this government. I'm really afraid you're setting yourself up for major disappointment.

ScottMP

Ohh

Your gonna get an earfull this morning

lololol



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ScottMP

Steamhead

With NO Expectations I get No dissappointment. I have no dilusions about changing anything, I just thought if I am there I might as well mention what really effects my industry.

I applaud your steam knowledge and talent but it's getting to a point where its no longer a vialble solution for effecient use of fuel. I feel that changes in our industry will be rapid in the next ten to fifteen years and I see oil needing to catch up with gas.

Here's another question fro discussion. Why do we discuss gas as a monopoly when oil, while distributed by local companys is purchased and price controlled by four or five larger companys ? Yes there is some adjustment of price on the local level but really whos sets the price ?

And if oil and gas are truley finite, we might not be dealing with either in fourty or fifty years. For the young guys here on the wall, thats with in thier lifetime.


Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Wayco Wayne_2

You're

a week late. Anna Nichole Smith ( with her own set of monuments) is down here in DC this week in the Supreme Court trying to get her hard earned money from her late husbands family. As for the politicians, wear your wallet in a zippered pocket. Let us know how it goes. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

adayton_2

Finite Oil Mr Milne

is a fact. Back in the 1970s a speaker at one of our American Society for Quality Control Conferences gave such an impassioned speach on the subject that I thought the poor red faced fellow was going to burst from an apoplectic fit. Bottom line from his chart data is we ARE in fact going to run out of ALL fossil fuels in something like 2 or 3 hundred years (I do not recall the exact number). Now that may sound like forever BUT.........lol in reality terms it is right around the corner. :-).

Have fun on your trip.

Ps: Interesting link on Energy: ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/ )
and an pdf energy article attached.
Alfred

Brad White_9

It was P.J. O'Rourke, was it not

who opined that if we did not burn the oil, what would we otherwise do with it? Just leave it sitting in the ground?

Steamhead (in transit)

Two things, Scott

first, the fact that oil is distributed by local companies does make a difference. Call around and you'll see what I mean. Then try finding competitive gas suppliers, in some places there is token competition but it's interesting to see how fast these guys go out of business. Yes, we know oil and gas come from the same wells (my brother could expound on this, he explores for oil and gas).

Second, we can't afford to ignore our steam customers. The scorched-air pushers will be trying to shut down anything hydronic as well as steam. We need the numbers that steam will provide to oppose them. We don't need the crooked government aiding and abetting unscrupulous contractors who pressure customers to do wildly overpriced tear-outs.