another toilet question

Unknown

The plm I seen here with the "running toilet" is if the overflow tube is set below the water line, the water will siphons from tank into tube, like the filter on the fisk tank.... Learned this when I was in charge of cleaning fish tank in grade school..

jim k

I saw the other question about toilets,so I figured I would go ahead and ask even though this seems to be a "heating" board.(Hope that's ok).Also,I can't seem to break up the post ,so it's just one big paragraph. Anyway,what's happening is after I flush,the water level in the tank drops,the flapper closes over the flush valve,and the tank begins to refill.(So far,so good)
However,after a few seconds of filling,air bubbles come up into the tank from under the flapper.(It sounds a lot like when you use a water cooler and the bubbles gurgle up into the bottle).This pushes the flapper back up,letting more water out of the tank until the flapper falls back down again.After a few seconds,more bubbles,and the process repeats.The result is the tank won't refill,just constantly runs.
I've tried lowering the water pressure to the tank,weighting down the flapper enough so it would still work,but enough to try to hold back the air from underneath,which were both unsucessful.Someone suggested that it was the action of the water from the fill valve traveling along the bottom of the tank that was raising the flapper,but aside from lowering the pressure to almost nothing,I've looked inside the tank as it's happening,and it's definately air bubbles forcing their way up from below.
The only way I've managed to get it to work reasonably well is to take the piece of tubing running from the fill valve to the overflow tube,and instead of directing the water into the overflow tube,I clipped it to the side so the water is directed into the tank.This stops the bubbles,but it does'nt seem like a good solution.Also it's bugging the hell out of me,and I'm at the point where I just need to know.
Anyone ever come across this problem before?Any advice would be appreciated.Thanks in advance. -jim k

Dave Stroman

I wonder if it is the wrong flapper. What brand is the toilet.

Dave Stroman

Stroman Plumbing & Heating

Denver, CO.

jim k

I don't know the maker of the toilet.I replaced the flapper a couple of years ago with one of those red Korky's.It worked fine for about a year or so.The inside of the tank has styrofoam panels attached to it (to try to keep it from sweating)so I'm unable to see any brand name anywhere.There's none anywhere else either.Even if it's the wrong flapper,what would cause air tho be forced up into the tank?

EJW

Toilet

Can you post a picture of it?? EJW

bob young

douglas valve

disconnect tank & replace douglas valve w/ new companion flapper. case closed. there are eight million different flappers and most not interchangable.

Ed_26

toilet

My experience is that the water pressure is too high. You said you turned it down, but how? If the pressure is too much, that causes the fill tube to put too much water in the overflow tube, forcing the flapper up. Close the valve to the riser tube, or set the float valve screws to limit the fill rate.

John Lenhart

flapperless???

Another option is to go with a flapperless toilet. That way you will never have to buy a flapper again. Search Niagara flapperless toilet. They are designed for water conservation, but tend to be maintenance free. Good luck!

ScottMP

Look under the tank lid for the manufacturer

This could be a inexpensive WC and is just poorly designed. Buy a Toto and forget about the problem. You could try rebuilding the flush valve and a new fill valve and try and elimninate the problem.

I can't see how air is getting Under the flapper ? Thats a large passage way that has no water in it unless is flushing. I belive its the fill valve air.

Scott

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ScottMP

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singh

I only seen air in tank as you describe in a house that has well water.
Check valve in well was bad,allowing air pockets to form in cold water piping.

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jim k

I'll try to get a picture posted .

jim k

I turned the shut-off valve at the toilet until it was almost all the way closed.All this accomplished was to increase the amount of time between air bubbling.It is definately air being forced up and not water,I've watched the inside of the tank while it was filling.As far as adjustments,the toilet has one of those Fluidmaster 400A fill valves.Other then a spring clip on the rod connected to the float,I dont think there is a way to make any adjustments,but I could be wrong.The clip slides up and down to adjust the height of the water line,not pressure.

Ed_26

bubbles

If this is an older unit, it's possible that the rim holes are getting plugged. Try opening the holes under the rim with the hook on a coat hanger. Slip it in the holes & wiggle it around to clean. Then flush to clear debris. You can also use muriatic acid, but be aware this is a dangerous procedure - no other chemicals in the tank/water & wear gloves/glasses/coveralls etc,& don't leave it in too long or could crack the bowl/tank.

Donny

trap primer

Jim, the tube that clips onto the overflow riser is the toilet's trap primer. If sufficient water remains in the fixture trap after a flush, clipping the tube so the water helps fill the tank will only be a water conservation measure [ a good thing ]. As for the bubbles, I suspect as was posted earlier your discharge holes along the toilet rim are pluged.

bob young

trap seal & disease

the refill tube is located on top of overflow tube for a specific reason--to replenish the seal of the integral trap of the water closet. loss of seal of trap is dangerous to your family's health. sewer gas is very much not good for anyone.

rob brown

toilet

i agree with ed and donny.from what you describe, it sounds like maybe the refill tube may be sucking air down the overflow tube. if the rim holes are clogged(or sometimes a bigger hole in trapway),the cavity under the flapper would tend to fill up, then air sucked down the refill would bubble up under flapper. scrape out all those holes, and maybe pinch off slightly the refill tube(make sure you maintain trap seal)and see what happens. good luck. rob

jim k

First,thanks to everyone for the replies.I'm fairly sure that the fill valve is not part of the problem due to the fact that the air is coming up from under the flapper,but I may be wrong and I'm always willing to listen.I reamed out the holes on the underside of the rim and there was a bit of crap coming out but not much.I have access to a drain cleaner called "Clobber" at work .I know it's pretty strong stuff,and I've never used it on a toilet,only tubs and sink drains.First,is it safe to use in a toilet,and secondly,I'm guessing to pour a bit down the overflow tube and let it sit for five minutes or so.I would imagine it would be best to get rid of all the water in the tank and bowl first.Also it's an old toilet(1965 stamped on underside of tank lid,but no manufacturer name or model),I don't want to end up breaking it.Again, thanks for the advice. -jim
edit- Even with the refill tube discharging into the tank instead of the overflow,there is still plenty of water in the bowl after the flush.It covers the entire bottom of the bowl so no gas coming in.

jim k

Maybe I'm wrong,but I'm assuming the tube which leads from the fill valve to the overflow tube is called the refill tube.It does'nt actually go into the overflow tube,it connects to a nozzle that is clipped onto the top of the overflow tube,and the water shoots out of the nozzle into the overflow.I'm not getting what you're saying about the refill tube or overflow sucking air in.I figured with the water shooting down the overflow,maybe it's trapping some air wth it ,but even with the water pressure turned way down to almost nothing it still hapens,just not as rapidly.

rob brown

toilet

yes, that is the refill tube. and whether it's sucking air or just residual air in the rim cavities, it would tend to bubble up under flapper if said cavity was slow to drain.(holes clogged) rob

jim k

I get what you're saying now,thanks.