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Legal Avenues for a poorly installed heating system
S Ebels
Member Posts: 2,322
The Viessmann rep asked me to take a drive (240 miles round trip) and look at a 4 year old system that wasn't performing well. He had gotten a call from Viessmann HQ to go out and see what could be done.
On the way up there he described what he knew of the system. It had been designed by the Viessmann distributor and after they had done a heat loss (supposedly), generated a material list, and convinced the HO to buy it, they handed the project off to a "plumber" they recommended. The main complaint with the system was heat delivery and comfort that varied to a frustrating extent, room to room.
The equipment in this case, as in the one above, is not the problem. The problem was a wholesale lack of knowledge and/or carelessness on the part of the installer. He had been sued by the HO two years after the install and the HO was granted a paltry judgement of $2,000 by the local magistrate IIRC. This of course did not fix the problems and mistakes which were absolutely inexcuseable.
Here's what we found. The LP gas fired Vitola was in a nice crawlspace along with a Vitocell 300, 93 gallon DHW tank. The control was a Trimatik running a 1", four way mix valve. The first thing that struck me when I walked into the house, not the crawlspace, was that I could hear the hum of a high head circ. I only have about half of my hearing so for me to hear it, it has to be LOUD.
A closer look at the boiler and piping revealed a piping layout that would have been appropriate for domestic water lines but never on a hydronic system. Directly out of the 4-way was an 011 Taco screaming it's guts out (later up in the second story of the house I could still hear it) The 1" line from the mix valve was reduced to 3/4" into and out of the 011, then back up to 1". The only reason I could think of for doing this is that the 3/4" flanges were the only size the installer had on hand. There are no isolation valves downstream of the circ in the whole system. The 1" line left the circ and went directly into an old style Stadler, metric tube manifold with 6 loops of 14mm pex on it. A little temp testing and sluething revealed that only one loop supplied heat to the 600 sq ft, vaulted ceiling living room. The supply temp was 104* and the return temp was 63*, the same as the room temperature. I'd guess the length of that loop to be around 650-700'. There is no "temperature" left in the tube after winding it's way through about 1/3 of the living room. A quick check of the floor temps up there proved the long loop theory. Both the first and second floors are 1 1/2" gyp-crete BTW. The HO had told the rep that when the OD temp hit 10 degrees or less the living room temp will drop into the mid 50* range. I don't see any reason to disbelieve him.
Compounding the trouble with the living room zone was a nice layer of carpet and pad.
Other areas of the house seem to be over tubed as they run too warm. There are three loops of unknown length run into the dining/kitchen area which is only 400 sq ft. This area will reach temp and it also contains the single thermostat in the house, which cycles the screaming 011 on/off. The stat btw is an Erie power stealing type which goes blank whenever the boiler control switches to DHW production. Rather disconcerting for the HO. The two remaining loops go to the master bedroom and bath, one loop for each. The master bath is constantly cold probably due to the fact that the installer didn't account for the loss of heated floor space from cabinetry, the walk in shower and the huge corner style jetted tub. Both of these rooms have vaulted ceilngs also. Carpet of course, in the bedroom. Both rooms also have two outside walls, compounding the lack of heat problem.
Long story short is that the only room that was comfortable in the whole house was the garage. Nice huh? Everyone likes to spend their time and entertain guests in the garage don't they?
Other issues were that the Vitola was condensing in the flue so badly that the HO had wrapped the entire breeching pipe from the boiler to the chimney with duct tape to A: try to keep it from leaking and B: try to hold it together. It was paper thin with the only thing holding the pipe together being rust. Flue temp was below 200*
Back to the piping layout. After supplying the first manifold, the 1" copper simply fed through it and hit each successive manifold down the line. (3 additinal @ 3 loops each) with a 4th one of 4 loops serving the garage. The garage loop had a zone valve on it with it's own t-stat. There was evidence that someone had been changing circs to try to establish enough flow judging from the pile of circ gaskets lying on the floor. Hmmmm, I wonder why they can't balance the system with loop lengths running from 100 to 600+ feet???
To add insult to injury, the guy is paying in excess of $600 a month to keep his new house at 60*.
We can get the house to heat by adding some supplemental heat where needed along with some actuators and other piping changes.............but ....... all this merely points out a fact that many homeowners learn too late in the game and it is this.
You can buy a good, better or best boiler. You can buy the best tube, controls, circulators, valves, etc. etc., forever. In the end, what you REALLY need to buy is the skill level of your installer. This is a difficult thing to establish but it can be done if you take the time to educate yourself before you make a purchase. In the end, it's the only thing that matters.
Shame on the installer who was obviously a burn and run type. He didn't obviously have the time or the inclination to learn about what he was doing. Pipe is pipe and tube is tube.............right?
Shame on the distributor who laid out the job and then left it in the hands of a hack. They no doubt had all kinds of legal stuff to back them nicely out of the picture when the going got rough.
Sorry this turned into a rant, but it REALLY TICKS ME OFF to see such a fine product so messed up, and a homeowner who will never say anything good about radiant floor heat because of some DA installer.
On the way up there he described what he knew of the system. It had been designed by the Viessmann distributor and after they had done a heat loss (supposedly), generated a material list, and convinced the HO to buy it, they handed the project off to a "plumber" they recommended. The main complaint with the system was heat delivery and comfort that varied to a frustrating extent, room to room.
The equipment in this case, as in the one above, is not the problem. The problem was a wholesale lack of knowledge and/or carelessness on the part of the installer. He had been sued by the HO two years after the install and the HO was granted a paltry judgement of $2,000 by the local magistrate IIRC. This of course did not fix the problems and mistakes which were absolutely inexcuseable.
Here's what we found. The LP gas fired Vitola was in a nice crawlspace along with a Vitocell 300, 93 gallon DHW tank. The control was a Trimatik running a 1", four way mix valve. The first thing that struck me when I walked into the house, not the crawlspace, was that I could hear the hum of a high head circ. I only have about half of my hearing so for me to hear it, it has to be LOUD.
A closer look at the boiler and piping revealed a piping layout that would have been appropriate for domestic water lines but never on a hydronic system. Directly out of the 4-way was an 011 Taco screaming it's guts out (later up in the second story of the house I could still hear it) The 1" line from the mix valve was reduced to 3/4" into and out of the 011, then back up to 1". The only reason I could think of for doing this is that the 3/4" flanges were the only size the installer had on hand. There are no isolation valves downstream of the circ in the whole system. The 1" line left the circ and went directly into an old style Stadler, metric tube manifold with 6 loops of 14mm pex on it. A little temp testing and sluething revealed that only one loop supplied heat to the 600 sq ft, vaulted ceiling living room. The supply temp was 104* and the return temp was 63*, the same as the room temperature. I'd guess the length of that loop to be around 650-700'. There is no "temperature" left in the tube after winding it's way through about 1/3 of the living room. A quick check of the floor temps up there proved the long loop theory. Both the first and second floors are 1 1/2" gyp-crete BTW. The HO had told the rep that when the OD temp hit 10 degrees or less the living room temp will drop into the mid 50* range. I don't see any reason to disbelieve him.
Compounding the trouble with the living room zone was a nice layer of carpet and pad.
Other areas of the house seem to be over tubed as they run too warm. There are three loops of unknown length run into the dining/kitchen area which is only 400 sq ft. This area will reach temp and it also contains the single thermostat in the house, which cycles the screaming 011 on/off. The stat btw is an Erie power stealing type which goes blank whenever the boiler control switches to DHW production. Rather disconcerting for the HO. The two remaining loops go to the master bedroom and bath, one loop for each. The master bath is constantly cold probably due to the fact that the installer didn't account for the loss of heated floor space from cabinetry, the walk in shower and the huge corner style jetted tub. Both of these rooms have vaulted ceilngs also. Carpet of course, in the bedroom. Both rooms also have two outside walls, compounding the lack of heat problem.
Long story short is that the only room that was comfortable in the whole house was the garage. Nice huh? Everyone likes to spend their time and entertain guests in the garage don't they?
Other issues were that the Vitola was condensing in the flue so badly that the HO had wrapped the entire breeching pipe from the boiler to the chimney with duct tape to A: try to keep it from leaking and B: try to hold it together. It was paper thin with the only thing holding the pipe together being rust. Flue temp was below 200*
Back to the piping layout. After supplying the first manifold, the 1" copper simply fed through it and hit each successive manifold down the line. (3 additinal @ 3 loops each) with a 4th one of 4 loops serving the garage. The garage loop had a zone valve on it with it's own t-stat. There was evidence that someone had been changing circs to try to establish enough flow judging from the pile of circ gaskets lying on the floor. Hmmmm, I wonder why they can't balance the system with loop lengths running from 100 to 600+ feet???
To add insult to injury, the guy is paying in excess of $600 a month to keep his new house at 60*.
We can get the house to heat by adding some supplemental heat where needed along with some actuators and other piping changes.............but ....... all this merely points out a fact that many homeowners learn too late in the game and it is this.
You can buy a good, better or best boiler. You can buy the best tube, controls, circulators, valves, etc. etc., forever. In the end, what you REALLY need to buy is the skill level of your installer. This is a difficult thing to establish but it can be done if you take the time to educate yourself before you make a purchase. In the end, it's the only thing that matters.
Shame on the installer who was obviously a burn and run type. He didn't obviously have the time or the inclination to learn about what he was doing. Pipe is pipe and tube is tube.............right?
Shame on the distributor who laid out the job and then left it in the hands of a hack. They no doubt had all kinds of legal stuff to back them nicely out of the picture when the going got rough.
Sorry this turned into a rant, but it REALLY TICKS ME OFF to see such a fine product so messed up, and a homeowner who will never say anything good about radiant floor heat because of some DA installer.
0
Comments
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Poorly installed Viessmann Heating system
I had a Viessmann boiler installed 5 years ago, and have not had one solid year of consitant heat. Problems with the computer, problems with the Riello Burner, problems with the valves that control the water to the zones...etc...Viessmann has been wonderful to work wiht, but the guy who installed it (not Viessmann) turns out to be a real slime. It has been discovered that there were numerous errors in the installation process (ie: not putting in a metal flue liner as indicated in the maunual...which led to creosote dripping out of my flue into my basement) Any suggestions on how to deal with this slime legally? Thanks in advance.
Will0 -
legal stuff
can't help ya there, what state are you in?, other than po'd
maybe the better business bureau. did the installer have references or a recomendation?0 -
Get a lawyer
familiar with consumer law. Your state may have a statute of repose whereby you have x number of years to discover latent defects. In Massachusetts under design-based errors and ommissions it is six years for example. How that manifests itself on installations is another matter.
If the system is manifestly unsafe then you may have recourse with the board of professional licensure. If the installer really is a "Sleaze" as you say, then you will be doing others a favor by using the process. If he is not licensed, you will still be doing the public a favor. Even a bigger one.
There is of course the standard "warranty of merchantability" which most states recognize. Specificially it means that you buy something it is expected to do what such a device/object/system is intended to do. Such as heat your house. You buy a car it is expected to stop, go and park.
Basically, most default warranties as recognized are good for one year unless specifically contracted, so do not get your hopes up. Civil recourse is always a possibility but it is a long ugly road with no guarantees.0 -
Viessmann
I am in New York State. What is Po'd? BBB is mainly for the business owner. I tried filing a complaint with the county, but they basically dismissed it as a dispute. I kid you not, this system has been a heart ache to my family. My 4 year old daughter asked many nights if the orange machine will break and if she needs extra blankets. I suspect an incompetent installer. He was ref by my father. Found out later that most of the local oil company techs think this guy is a big BS artist.
Will0 -
PO'd
I will spare Nick this one.
P--sed Off in the past tense.
I share your heartache and for your daughter. (As you said), Viessmann is an excellent product but as you found out, any product can be mis-applied.
Is there a remedy package that Viessmann prescribes? Shame not to get the benefits.
Also just a thought, if it was a sooting problem or makes the place uninhabitable and it was installed by a licensed individual (presumption of legality here) what does your Homeowners Policy say?0 -
Brad,
As I said , Viessman has been great. Today they suggested that I get a reputable local HVAC contractor to come out to my house and trouble shoot the install while on the phone with them as a consult. Perhaps suing after the results come back from the contractor, but as you said, it is a long ugly road,
Will0 -
Duly noted you did say
That they were and are great. I was just reinforcing but corrected my posting to reflect that. At least you can get a fresh start.
Not to wish it on anyone but what is the Opposite of Namaste? Can we will it upon the miscreant? Not good Karma but that 'downward dog' should suffer a little too
0 -
Any chance you could post photos of the system? maybe we could make some recomendations0 -
namaste...
Brad,
Thanks for the laugh and understanding my email. Most dont. I needed a laugh after the day my wife and I had on the phone with Viessmann. This installer lives in the next town.....really healthy thoughts of yanking out my entire system and dumping it on his brand new car!
Peace and blessings to you and thanks for the reply.
Will0 -
Ray,
I dont mind taking a picture of the system. Need to get my digital camera back from my in laws! The problems in the past have been lack of a metal liner, in appropriately installed valves that were upside down and leaked on themselves and rusted out (twice), some computer glich of a nighttime reset that lowered my house temp even though I set my thermostat higher.
Will0 -
Well, Will,
I was not quite wishing permanent Shivasana on him. Is not my place ....
Seriously, to you and yours,
Namaste.
Brad0 -
Will
If I were you I'd first find out if a permit was secured (probably not) and if the guy has a license. Contact the local enforcing agency and ask to speak with the inspector. If a permit wasn't secured you have a few options. First, get the permit (ask the inspector how to proceed), then have the inspector (with your help and that of Viessmann) point out and cite any and all violations of the code as well as the corrections to made in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. If the original installer refuses to come back and make necessary corrections, write him a letter and send it certified return receipt mail. Go out and hire a new contractor, make the changes, pass the inspection, then send contractor #1 the bill (make sure to give the enforcing agency the firm's name too). Make the appliance safe for not only you but to who you sell your house to in the future.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Suggestions from a NY contractor
Take pictures with a Poloroid or similar camera. They can't be "doctored" like a digital pic can. Save them for court. W/O documentation like that, it becomes he said/she said type of situation.
I know that in NYS the warranty obligation for labor of a mfg defect is zero from the installer. Installation defects, especially blatant violations of the install manual instructions should be considerably longer.
There is no "heating license" in NY, so you can't take that away
Get a good lawyer and clean him out.
T
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Will
Was the flue liner included in the overall price ? If it wasn't , are you willing to pay for the extra cost of installing the liner ? We often find ourselves in a situation where extra work is needed to be done , work that wasn't addressed in the contract . We try to accomodate the customer with no extra charge , but a flue liner is a pretty big chunk o change .
0 -
Forensic repairs
I see (and fix) shoddy work all the time. Yes, even Viessmann. I'd recommend hiring a qualified hydronic expert who can detail the repairs required and document with digital pics with date stamp. I'd call an attorney who specializes in construction defects and retain him.
I'd then fix the problems without waiting. You can damage the equipment without a stainless chimney liner. Present the repair costs for collection and damages.
If you're in the Hudson Valley, call John Abularaggh at Advanced Radiant Design. He knows what to do.
An inspector will not have the hydronic background (or burner background) to be of much assistance.
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where In NY are you0 -
How about...
... an afternoon "massage" by Kali? All the "extra" joints generated in the process may make fixing the system that much easier! ;-P
But seriously, it's too bad that the system is not performing to expectations. I have been very, very happy with Ms. Vitola in the basement, but I did have the good fortune of having a fantastic GC, a good heating contractor, and the Wall as resources. Hiring the right contractor is everything...
... two years ago, we got an earful on HVAC-Talk from a p'od homeowner who had experienced the shoddy Vitodens install of a lifetime. Not only did the unsupported expansion tank play bottle-rocket during system fill, the LLH and other tasty items simply went missing. The homeowner was eliciting all sorts of advice re: suing the original contractor and many people shared that sentiment...
The cleanup crew basically had to start over. We got to hear the other side of the story from said cleanup crew later on the Wall... this contractor had previously bid on the job and lost to the low-bid installer. So, homeowners can bring on these troubles themselves when they expect a Yugo-class mechanic to install a Mercedes-class appliance.
Will, best of luck getting the system fixed and make sure that the rescue squad is more qualified than the original installer.0
This discussion has been closed.
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