Limey-Major Propress Problem

ScottMP

Since we've had the experience with the P/P.

But, to be on the safe side and cover all bases, have you checked the new P/P fittings that are 2" ? Maybe a defect in manufactuing and your the first ? Bad or misaligned o-rings ?

I also feel your pain. Let us know.

Scott



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EBEBRATT-Ed

Limey-Major Propress problem

Our Company ownes 3 Propress Machines all Ridgid (2 cord 1 Battery). We have been propressing copper for about 4 years and use these things every day on every size 1/2"-4"

We have never had a leak --not one- untill today. How do you go from having total confidence to no confidence in 8 hours??

We piped up 13 vav boxes with hot water coils. The loop starts off 2"-11/2"-11/4"-1" and branches off to feed the coils which are 3/4" About 400 feet of copper on this job.

We noticed that the 2" copper that our supplier delivered to the job was made in ENGLAND all the other copper was AMERICAN. The 2" seemed slightly out of round (you could tell with the tubing cutter on it) Howaver it was bareley noticeable and the fittings pushed on with out any trouble. When we leak tested with 100psi air the system would not hold pressure. We checked everything but the propress because ProPRESS DOSENT LEAK. Except for a threaded plug that we removed and redoped The only thing
leaking was the 2" stuff-The smaller stuff is fine.

Anyone have any comments or a similar situation?? I would have thought that this would be a nonissue with the corded tool espeially . After all it turnes the tubing hex shaped

Needles to say the pipe cover has been proceeding behind us(the new the lines hadn't been tested-we told him-but the GC wants it done pronto)

The GC aint happy, were not happy , and neighyer is the pipe coverer.

About 30 2" joints and probably had 7 leaks.

Ed

Brad White_42

How does the OD mic in diameter?

I have never used a ProPress and am not a professional installer (just a personal one ). But as an engineer, I would seek if the nominal size including wall thickness conforms to EU standards (3/4" is 19mm, 1" is 25mm, 1-1/4" is 32mm, 1-1/2" is 38mm and 2" is 50mm nominal sizes.

If the tubing is to be labelled by size it has to conform to ASTM B88. Is it so labelled? Just a thought for where I would start.

Man, I share your frustration!

EBEBRATT-Ed

Thanks Brad. Good advise. I will check it out tommorow.

Ed

Paul Pollets

Labeling

The tubing must have the proper labeling, approval #'s and color coding. If not, the wholesaler who provided it bears major liability.

We've been using press fittings exclusively for 18 months. Never had a leak. (Unless we forgot to crimp a fitting)

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Robert O'Connor_12

EBEBRATT

Sounds like the pipe.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

Cheeseburgers in Paradise

We recently finished a Cheeseburgers in Paradise restaurant and used the Ridgid PP tool there for our first out-of-the-gate pressed fitting job. Not only did it work great with no leaks, the hotel next door had a major need for a very quick fix in their 2" domestic hot water system - no valves to isolate the tank (out of three), so our mechanic popped in a set of 2" PP valves in just minutes. Now they're a customer too(G).

Gotta be the tubing that's the problem.

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EBEBRATT-Ed

The 2" was a small part of this job. We replaced the leaking propress fittings with 2" sweat fittings (there were about 9 propress leaks) Our feeling is that if it was the tubing we didnt want to try propressing it again and waste out more expensive fittings. We repressurized at 100 psi and so far so good left the job at 2:30 today and will check pressure test Monday. It held for a couple of hours today (without budging) so I think were in the clear.

No leaks were found on any propress except the 2". This is the start of a 5 million $ project and my boss wants to use all propress.

2 days ago I was fine with that. Now????????

I checked the tubing Marked "Great Britian" colored with blue stripe, Type L had astm # that I didnt get.

I am going to mic this stuff and follow up on this because this will bother me till I get an answer.

Thanks for all the comments.

Ed

jwade55_3

I was on a job site this

> The 2" was a small part of this job. We replaced

> the leaking propress fittings with 2" sweat

> fittings (there were about 9 propress leaks) Our

> feeling is that if it was the tubing we didnt

> want to try propressing it again and waste out

> more expensive fittings. We repressurized at 100

> psi and so far so good left the job at 2:30 today

> and will check pressure test Monday. It held for

> a couple of hours today (without budging) so I

> think were in the clear.

>

> No leaks were found

> on any propress except the 2". This is the start

> of a 5 million $ project and my boss wants to use

> all propress.

>

> 2 days ago I was fine with that.

> Now????????

>

> I checked the tubing Marked "Great

> Britian" colored with blue stripe, Type L had

> astm # that I didnt get.

>

> I am going to mic

> this stuff and follow up on this because this

> will bother me till I get an answer.

>

> Thanks

> for all the comments.

>

> Ed

jwade55_3

I was on a job site

this afternoon. Their ridgid propress went out of calibration, and caused it to overpress some 2" fittings, maybe the opposite on your project?

J

EBEBRATT-Ed

Interesting. I am going to crimp some new fittings with two different propress machines on Monday and see what happens.

It was the battery propress machine we were using on the fittings that leaked.

ED

S Ebels

Could you try this?

See if you can slit cut the pipe to get it out of the fittings that leaked and identify exactly where the leak was. I'm wondering if there's a chance the high spot on the out of round pipe, nicked or cut the O-ring while being inserted.

I've never had a PP fitting that was properly assembled leak so this really tweaks my radar. We have a lot of PP out there and a good share of it is in very inaccessible locations.

Brian (Tankless)

I'd prefer to hear it called

British pipe, not "Limey"

Brad is on the right track. As far as I recall, there are 25.4 mm's to the inch. In close tolerance work like plumbing, 0.4 mm can make a difference, and it did.

Mic it OD & ID, if it doesn't read exactly what U.S. pipe does, you got some pipe meant for domestic U.K. (Limey or Euro consumption, and was sent here instead.

I hope the $5 million job doesn't get derailed over this mistake.

It looks like Pro-Press type fittings are here to stay, but I still have my reservations regarding their long-term reliablity. I would much rather see two o-rings per fitting.

I'm in the predictive/preventative maint' business, and am a borderline fanatic about the preparation of joints & connections etc'. So, if a pipe end is not scrupulously cleaned & deburred, and if great care is not taken in assembling o-ring type fittings, including hydraulics, they WILL leak.

Even though the un-equaled solderer, HeatBoy, is using Press fittings now, I remember what he once said about retiring, "I'll quit when they tear that torch out of my cold dead hands", that's me, I love my torch

I'm off to the HBA Home Show to see what's new.

Later, Brian.

Unknown

Out of calibration?

I thought that the Ridgid ProPress tools all had on-board computers that identified the tool as being out of spec if a problem happens. How is one to know if or when they get tweaked?


Wallace Radiant Design

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Jerry_15

Drag out the rep toot sweet, and get some answers. That pp has been a godsend, especially on big pipe with lousy valves and a lot of drain down. Ka-ching. They have a lot of blinky lights to warn if its out of adjustment, and apparantly there's one that goes off at 1,000 or 10,000, whatever, that will shut down the unit within so many presses until it has been factory serviced. Just heard about this recently, and my supplier gives a loaner while it's in the shop. I've used it on soft copper that was way egg-shaped, just squeezed it close with channel locks first. No problemo, although I admit I did put some teflon pipe dope in first around the o-ring. I don't think that violates their no lubricants rule. I also just tested, by accident, their claim that it would hold pressure without the o-ring, (removed to solder on a special fitting). It doesn't leak, true, it was only 1/2", but like the OJ verdict: not guilty, but don't do it again. I very much want to hear what you find out on this matter. Work the reps.

Jerry_15

By the way, did you try re-pressing the joints on a slghtly different rotation. Shouldn't have to do it of course, but it might have saved you some sweat while you were tracking down the criminal. Good luck.

Seattle Nick

Don't forget........


........where our standards came from. As far as I know, the UK has not changed over fully to the metric system and many of their industries changed over to US standards after WW2.

Here is an excerpt from American English : ""Britisher" sounds rather Germanic (especially in stereotypical WW2 films). "Briton" is not widely used. We are Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen (and women!) and confusing them causes offence. The correct name of the country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, often abbreviated to the United Kingdom. Great Britain is a large island off the North West coast of Europe, it includes the kingdoms of England and Scotland and the principality of Wales. England and Scotland share the same monarch but Wales has a prince of its own. Northern Ireland is just a province, don't confuse it with Ulster which includes the counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal in the Irish republic. The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey etc) are not legally part of the United Kingdom.

The word "Brit" is rapidly coming into popular usage. The correct adjectives for things from Scotland are "Scottish" for most things, "Scots" for the people and a sort of pine tree and "Scotch" for the whisky. "


If I picked up some tube marked "Made in UK", I would expect "high quality" rather than "manufactured to sloppy standards". But then again, what would you expect from someone who has one of these in the yard....

Unknown

Tool or fittings?

It still bothers me that Viega won’t warranty their fittings when pressed with a REMS tool/tong. Huge REMS presence at the PHCC show today in MA. There are lots of other press fittings available now as well.

Still, I’d really like to know the reason why these fittings didn’t work.


Wallace Radiant Design

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EBEBRATT-Ed

Have # for Ridgid Tech support and will be calling them tommorrow. Also posted on the Ridgid site.

Will post more info when I get this resolved.

Cant sleep at night.................... Things been bugging me all weekend.

Ed

Brad White_44

Oddly enough

Most people do not realize that the US is and has been officially on the Metric System since before (I believe) WWII. It is because our feet and inches in the USBS (Bureau of Standards) defines our feet and inches in metric terms (between marks such and such on the platinum bar at temperature in France)..

It is the common usage that makes us one of the few countries that still uses the Imperial units.

Cosmo_3

more on this please

Where in France is this platinum bar that has the official standard markings? Is it somewhere we can visit when in Europe?

Ok, enough insomnia...going to bed

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Weezbo

Well,....

according to my thoroughly detestable propress 201 30 hr class in 2->4" where the tool was tweaking every 4" pipe and fitting any which way but loose...i recall that there is a minimal distance that needs to be respected one fitting to the next. now that could cause a leak,... at least that was the feeling that i had when considering a swing joint in 2" to the 4" header off the heat exchanger....

Seattle Nick

Oh, THAT standard! I was thinking more along the lines of the Joseph Whitworth of the pipe and tube world. Oh well.....

EBEBRATT-Ed

Yes. Tried repressing with a different machine. Didnt help.

Ed

Constantin

I thought it would be in Paris,

...but it appears that the bar that used to be used is located at the French version of NIST in S

Brad White_9

Constantin is technically correct of course

but the US Congress has not kept up... It is still the platinum bar reference to my knowledge.

More later

GTG

Brad

EBEBRATT-Ed

Got some news. I called Ridgid Tech. Support this AM. Although they don't know why we are having leaks on the 2" they asked that we package up the pipe and fittings and ship to Ohio cutting off most of the tubing and leaving about 6" on each fitting so they can test them. They said that if they couldnt find the problem Viega would be called in. I asked if there was someone local who could look at this stuff and was told no.

I called our supplier (who provided the propress fittings and the copper). He said he had a local Viega contact. I was contacted by them very promptly (Viega). He is going to pick up the defective fittings? Pipe? and our battery powerd propress tool (which could also be the culprit)this coming Friday 3/17/06 and take it all to be tested. He is going to leave a propress tool with us for our use while ours is being checked.

I did mic the 2" copper and it measures exactly 2 1/8" od.

Can't do much else for now. It may be some time before we get an answer--I hope it is a definitative one. I will bump this occasionally until this is resolved. My gut feeling is a defective or out of calabration propress tool.

Thanks for all your help and comments.

Ed

Matt J._2

Propress

EBEBRATT I was wondering if you have tryed cleaning the jaws on the 2". Copper will build up on the tool and not allow it to crimp right, but normally the tool will flash that there is a problem? I have cleaned owers with a fitting brush, If you have your book take alook at this. Just a suggestion?? I don't know if this helps? Let us know what you find out. Matt j. w/BIGGERSTAFF'S

EBEBRATT-Ed

Yes. We did check and clean the jaws. As posted above Viega is taking the tool and jaws along with the pipe and fittings so everything will be checked.

Ed

EBEBRATT-Ed

Situation Resolved

We received a written report from Viega on the 2" Propress leaks. First of all our battery ProPress tool was sent back to Ridgid to be checked and it passed inspection.

The fittings and pipe were picked up by the local Viega Rep. and taken to be tested. All joints were checked and were shown to have been pressed properly and were within the manufacturers tolerances.

One leak was caused by scratches in the tubing like the type typically seen after dragging the tubing on a concrete floor during shipping etc.

The other leaks were caused by a defective seam in the tubing "a lapped seam" I believe it was called that caused the joint(s) not to be tight.

I guess the bottom line is to inspect the tubing when you Propress and discard or return to the supplier any tubing you feel is defective. The 2" tubing was made in Great Britian. We did't see any defects with the tubing originally but did notice when cutting with a tubing cutter that it semed slightly out of round.

Thanks to Ridgid and to Viega for stepping up and responding promptly to our phone calls and e-mails to resolve this problem. From now on I will be checking the tubing closely.

GO PROPRESS!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed

Jim Bennett

ProPress

Great to hear the cause was found. Thanks for sharing the update and the advice.

I will keep a closer eye on tubing in the future.

I would caution everyone to eyeball their fittings also. A year or so ago, I had a ProPress tee that had one of the grooves where the o-ring sets that was not quite formed right.

It was not as deep as the other grooves so the o-ring sat higher in the fitting. When I tried to push the tubing in, the o-ring would roll out with it. Nothing felt out of the ordinary when inserting the pipe but luckily I saw the o-ring in the branch of the tee before inserting the next piece.

Other than this one incident the ProPress has been a great timesaver. Especially good at minimizing downtime during repairs.

Jim

Cosmo_3

What a relief!!

I was wondering what the outcome would be! Looks like Viega is a stand-up company, and this is a good reminder to watch for pipe/fitting imperfections as we go about business. Thanks for the update


Cosmo Valavanis

Kal Row

at the end of the day, it's the o-ring that holds the pressure..

and while it only need a few atoms wroth of contact (less is better)
it had better be clean contact – or else

less is better – that is because it’s about pounds per square inch, with the SQUARE being the key word, if you wrench down an o-ring – then you have increased the fractional SQUARE inches by a SQUARE factor and the pressure it has to hold back by a square factor, so a few atoms of contact, only has to hold tiny SQUARE-ROOT’s worth of the pressure – and if you double the contact, you a holding back not twice, but a SQUARE amount of pressure increase,

you can put you finger over a .001 hole a 10,000psi cylinder, and easily hold back 10psi worth of pressure, increase the hole to .01 however, and you got yourself 100psi to hold back – not likely to do it without putting you whole weight behind you finger

moral – less, but very clean contact is the way to go

the propress crimp only keeps it from turning and sliding apart, the O-ring hold the pressure – you still have to clean the ends, not with a wire brush but with a fine household plastic pad or 0000 steelwool, thats why many are only using it for 1.5 and larger fittings where the labor saving over soldering is cost effective, for smaller – I just cant see it

EBEBRATT-Ed

There's no doubt that the propress has it's applications.

A plumbing company I know told me of a broken 3" water line and that they cut it off square with water pouring out, two guys in the ditch with a new propress valve stuffing it on the pipe while the other guy crimped it. Hope he didn't use the cord model.

Try and solder that!!!

Ed

Jerry_15

Man, am I glad to hear that. A longitudinal groove could certainly cause a mess. I assume the pipe supplier is taking care of you, big time.

Jimmy Gillies

Hi to all.

I'm not sure if this is any help? The UK 2'' copper tube has an O.D. of 54mm.
Strange that the copper tube is out of round though, not seen that this side of the pond. What are the markings on it Table X? BS...?
Has the tube a thin red line along it?
If I can help further please email me.
Regards.
Jimmy Gillies (Scotland)

EBEBRATT-Ed

Just an update. Have been propressing all summer with no problems.

The last order just delivered from our supplier today was for 120' of 2 1/2" L. Even though our order specified "domestic pipe" they sent 60' of domestic "Wolverine " and 60 feet of the "Limey stuff". We stopped the driver before he left and sent it(Limey) back.

We checked it before it went on the truck and it had the same slightly flattened seam area as did the tubing that had all the leaks.

ED

Cosmo_3

nice catch

You just saved big bucks!!!!!!

Can you believe after everything you went through that they sent you EXACTLY what you told them NOT to?

Amazing.....

Cosmo

Steamhead (in transit)

Time

to complain to the supply house manager, or his superiors. If no satisfaction at this level, switch supply houses- and be sure to spread the word! If that doesn't make them change their ways, they deserve their bankruptcy.

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