Personal attacks

hydronicsmike

...Thanks a lot Rollie. I very much respect you for starting this thread. It shows to me that you care not only for the services provided by Dans web site, but also for the individuals that stop by here.

If I ever made myself guilty for an attack on someone, now is a good time to apologize. I guess passion can stir up emotions and then often the wrong things are said in the heat of the moment. But none of us should ever forget that we should be professionals and its time to act like one too.

Respectfully,
Mike

Rollie Peck

Personal attacks

I'm a homeowner who has benefited greatly from the contributions many of you have made to this, my favorite website. I'm dismayed by the personal atacks that sometimes occur. I would ask those who do that to look back at the results of their attack on someone or some group of people or some company. They not only create illwill in the person or group being attacked, but illwill towards themselves by all who witness the attack. The attack rarely accomplishes what the attacker wants to accomplish. Usually the attacker is proven wrong and shown that he overlooked one or more reasons why things are as they are. I would urge all contributors to The Wall to " Attack the problem, not the person"!!!

Rollie Peck, homeowner

Paul Pollets

Good Advice!!

Wish more would understand who's watching...

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Steve Ebels_3

Thanks Rollie

That's good advice for all involved.

"Angry words stir up hate, but a soft answer turns away wrath".

From the Proverbs of Solomon

Ken_8

No doubt about it Rollie,

You're onto something.

Occasionally and unfortunately, the problem is the person; which is wherein the problem lies.



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Unknown

feelin' like the scarecrow

What did I miss???

Rollie Peck

Personal attacks

Hi Steve:

I was referring to some of the responses that occurred on the long Condensing Boilers thread. The problem has occurred a number of times in the past, usually on the topic of "what make of boiler is best."

Rollie Peck

Tony_23

Mouthful

You just said one.

J.C.A._3

Rollie,

Just to expand on your thought....


Hate, is a wasted emotion. It hurts the person doing the hating FAR more than the person being hated.It eats them up inside, while the hated person rarely has knowledge of it.

A difference of opinion IS a good thing, it makes people think. Diatribes and condesending remarks are counterproductive. If you are thinking that way, step back,count to 100 if you must, and ask yourself and that person WHY they posted their opinion. Sometimes, they may have knowledge that has either by-passed you, or maybe their experience has SHOWN them a different way of solving a like problem. JMHO. Chris

Al Corelli

So let me get this straight.
I have to stop hating scorched air heat?

Don't think so.

Wetheads Rule the Basement!

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Heated discussion

can be very good. The line is crossed when personal attacks are made. That's when our moderator steps in and takes care of the offending parties. Anyone seen to be causing disruption gets booted off the bulletin board.

-Andrew

J.C.A._3

Al,

Some hates can be redirected to anyone who will listen.

Fortunately, warm air isn't an individual, but more of a poor heating concept.If you feel so inclined.... Hate away brother. I don't think you are offending any particular individual in your personal thinking.If anyone here is offended,it's only because they work both sides of the field. Some may take offence, but that doesn't make it a personal attack, but an opinion. No harm, no foul. JCA

WE know the truth! (no names or people mentioned here!)Chris

rb_6

There a certain level of intelligence and fortitude that a good debater makes, the perceived victory goes to the man who despite all ridicule still holds strong being reminded of the famous line, “ a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still ( a quote who’s ownership is among great debates).” You win no wars when discussion turns rude, angry, insulting…in fact these are signs of weakness not strength (hard to do when one is passionate – part of ones DNA…always there and sometimes controllable – I know!). I have had several passionate debates over the years on this site…first with Tomas Lenman and then Jeff and occasionally with Dale. I can't remember if KP and I ever stood nose to chest...his gentle-giant-ness always makes me forget my worst worries...

At the end of each of these I still left having respect for the other man and quite frankly look forward to the next time we meet either on the same side or the opposite…for me its what can I learn from the discussion not what can I enforce….or at least that’s what I try my best to achieve.

An unknown fact from the past:

Do you remember the time when in a very heated dialogue Jeff challenged me to go down and see what hydronic heating was all about? I actually went - The DW from Danfoss (Wine Connoisseur from heaven) drove me down…it took me two days from Calgary, across the border down into the deep mid west to get there…we shared a beer and a hot dog… in 60 minutes my four day trip was over - we shook hands and to this day it amazes me the man dropped his whole life in mid stream to go back and get his degree…no matter what you think – that’s cool - haven’t heard what he’s up to but glad I went.) Thomas was also rewarding – still is, every time you shake his hand you touch the past, present and future…he’s one of a kind. Dale is invigorating to the extreme…I have to dig deep into the cerebral cortex to stay tuned when he’s around…the metaphors, analogies and innuendos are brilliant.

If someone were to ask you what was learned from a debate, and your reply is along the lines of “I learned the guy was a ****”…then you lost not only the debate but also a valuable chance to learn something. When guys leave the conversation it means they're done learning or tired of the crap...in both cases you've lost.

I’ve also learned you have to be prepared to devalue your ownership of ideas if your position is to turn less than professional. You have to give up your position to attack the character of another…sometimes it’s worth it if it means defending your principals but forget about returning to your ideas…no one will consider you the winner…even if you were right and even if something beneficial does develops from the attack - in many cases you will not be the recipient of the benefit...even if you exposed the feature. If this happens to you – get up and find another field to play on…maybe you’ll find another adventure along the way.

Finally, being able to develop the skills to defend your opponent’s position greater than he, is the only way to thoroughly challenge you own strengths.

The Wall is the number one site to hang out ...yet it has a few participates who monitor daily but don’t engage...most of these are from the manufacturing side…can you blame them? Who wants to have a heated discussion in front of your contracting and indirectly consumer customers? So all that great talent sits there because it can’t be exposed to the risks. That’s a shame…and something to think about next time you plan on losing it…in fact its darn right selfish…driving away the talent that is always welcome but unable to play….Dan’s done a marvelous job keeping it professional. Have you ever tried to debate Dan…he only does it when it fun, useful and beneficial…otherwise he has birds to count which is more important than any old argument.

In the end - its just life – then you die…count what you learn along the way…because some day soon you may find yourself with your feet in the kitty litter box, a heat lamp on you face and silly little umbrella in your drink…out on the back porch in you robe…counting one little birdie, two little birdies…

Have a great weekend.

RB

John R. Hall

Well said Mr. Bean

I have personally met and talked with many of the good folks here, a.k.a. "debaters." They are all fine people. Heck, I get ridiculed a lot because I write for a "rag." That's fine, I critique journalists ALL of the time. Point is, if you can share a laugh with a Wallie in person, you'd be amazed at how much you really do have in common.

Time for nighty-night. The story ideas have stopped bouncing around in my head.

JohnBarnes

HO vs Pro

Along the same lines...there are often more subtle (but very obvious) attacks when a Homeowner comes here to ask a simple question and instead of receiving any useful advice they are given the response to "call a professional." (as if the HO is completely incapable understanding whatever answer you might have been willing to offer to another pro)

That is one of the reasons I stopped visiting here as much as I used to as I often found I went away with no useful advice, only the edict to "call a qualified professional."

What you pros need to realize is that there are a lot of us HO's out here that have much more techinically difficult and intellectually challenging professions than you might imagine (and who also own a lot of tools and know how to use them) So working on a boiler, or whatever, just might not be as complicated to the HO as you think.

I often see the excuse (to not help) stated that boilers, and anything with a flame (gas or oil) are so dangerous, etc. and that is why the HO needs to enlicit the help of a "qualified professional."

Well, there are a lot of other things out in the real world that are not only much more dangerous, but also much more techinically difficult to undertstand than a home heating sytem. There are also a lot of us HO's out here who have multiple, advanced degrees and very high mechanical aptitudes notwithstanding the fact that we haven't "worked in the trade" for the past 10 years. And a lot of us sit at desks all day and like to blow off steam working with tools on the weekend and do this as a form of relaxation. I will never enlicit a pro to work on my heating system because that is one of my hobbies. (That would be like hiring someone else to play golf for you)

So, rather than assume all HO's are idiots, why not just answer their questions? To do otherwise is also a form of "personal attack."

Constantin

You put your finger on the point...

... it is possible to have passionate debates yet remain polite and factual. One can even agree to disagree. Name-calling and other immature behavior is not helpful, but most of us have been down that path either by accident or by design. Some, more than once.

Keeping an open mind can be challenging when someone is rattling the very foundations of your beliefs. Sometimes, it is easy to read more meaning into words than was intended by the author, as we all bring our perspective to an issue. Yet, unless you can defend your opinions with plausible theory, facts, and real-life experience, why hold on to them tightly?

Dan has a vision for this site and the success of Wall to date is a testament to the the need it fills, work he's put in, the repository of information it has become, etc. However, I too think that more people would participate on the Wall if the probability of them getting flamed in the process were smaller.

Tony_23

A wise man,

Mr. Bean.

Even some of us "non-manufacturing" types don't contribute much anymore because of the "flaming". I, for one, have a hard time forgetting things past when engaged with the offender later. I think someone who is offensive here and congenial in person is hiding something one of those times.
Anonymity can release inhibitions like alcohol does.

Of course, this is just MY opinion. Some may take parts of it and twist it and others will fail to see themselves, but that's okay.

I'm going back into the shadows.

Ken_8

All

true. Thanks for sharing those introspections with us. And thanks for being a good friend, above all.



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Unknown

And it's so easy to avoid. If you're getting angry while you are typing, stop before you hit "submit". See if the post has any real value or if you are just spouting off. I can't even tell you how many posts I abort that way. Sometimes It's enough to type it out.. it's long enough to calm down a little. Then you can see what was typed isn't worth anyone reading, and close the page. It's also a little sobering to realize that you're just typing junk sometimes and you really can't word a good response.

That's when you walk away and come back to it later.

I've moderated several forums with flame problems far worse than this one has sometimes, and the simple read before you submit trick works wonders.

DanHolohan

Good advice,

and the Wall was once much worse than it is now. We had to take it all down and start over again, and at great expense. Actually, I think it's pretty good now.

Dave Yates (PAH)

The olde Wild West Wall

was a real blast.

While I wouldn't trade one day of that treasure for gold, it had served its purpose for stirring the internet BB scene. Unfortunately, as so often happens in today's society, the actions of a few ruined it for everyone.

Today's Wall is much more civil and, as someone mentioned, one of the few BB's where "flaming" is not tolerated for very long. Hot & heavy debating - sometimes with fiery passion, however, remains one of the bright spots & as RxB pointed out so well, provides excellent personal growth opportunities.

Proper flames bring the pot to a nice comfortable temperature that helps cook the stew to a tender tasty treat. Too much flame boils over and burns the meal. No flame equals milk-toast.



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Andrew Hagen (ALH)

I think

they call it "Online Disinhibition"

-Andrew