shopping for new provider

Dan_15

Hi Steamhead, I wasnt following this thread for a few days and missed your message; sorry. Very interesting thoughts. I am not too good at eyeballing the sizing of piping, but it looks like the 2" mains are tied into 1-1/4" cast iron runs which are in most places tied into the convectors with 3/4 pipe. In a few places where the piping is more accessible it looks like a couple of runs were replaced with 1" piping at some point. I have not seen anything on the piping anywhere that looks like a balancing valve. Is it possible not to have these? How do I know what to look for? I will definitely change near boiler piping to pump away, and I am considering the Buderus electronic controls. Thanks.

Dan_15

I have learned that one of the great things about oil heat (among many) is the ability to shop for a provider who "clicks" with your budget, your boiler and yourself. I had a new Buderus G215 installed last year by one of the "big" installers in Boston. I was just a freshman learning about oil heat at that time, but I have to admit that I was not totally pleased with the installation. They mis-wired the thermostat and then told me that I needed a new one until I discovered the error and fixed it myself. They forgot some important safety piping, and I am not completely confident that the circulator pumps are in the right place. Dont get me wrong, they have been prompt and courteous and generally competent, but I cant even get a fixed price oil contract from them anymore. My point is that I woke up this morning and said to myself, why cant I be 100% satisfied? I should shop around for other providers and find one who I can have a long-term relationship with. I am completely impressed with the depth of knowledge of the folks I have encountered here, so I checked "Find a Professional" but the listings do not really get into much detail. I would love to meet a professional who has very strong knowledge of Buderus boilers and competitive oil prices and customer service. If I am not out of line here, I would appreciate any references or introductions toward this end. Thanks as always.

Big Ed

Shopping

I want to eat at Peter Lugger's and pay at Sizzler's prices too.

Dan_15

Point is taken. However, oil service and delivery is subject to market competition. I am quite willing to pay more in order to get more, but why is it wrong for me to act like an informed consumer and responsible homeowner? Believe me not everyone I have met knows what a three-pass design is, or that that the G215 can handle low return temps internally. I want a service provider who will be a partner with me, and who respects that I care for my heating system and that I want to learn more. I feel that the professionals on this forum are better than most others in this regard and I was hoping for some references or introductions to make a new relationship with a new servicer. Why should I be vilified for taking advantage of the very competition that is one of the principal selling points of oil versus gas? Perhaps I was indeed out of line asking this question here.

Constantin

I'm a fellow oil-heating homeowner...

... and I'm not convinced it's best to combine service and oil delivery with one company.

Simply to avoid any conflicts of interest, I would prefer a professional service contract with a dedicated service firm and a delivery contract with an oil provider. That said, I am sure that there are also plenty of oil companies out there that do both and keep their customers happy. So, YMMV.

I would also drop into OilTechTalk and see if there is a luminary over there that is close to you.

Dan_15

Actually, Constantin, I agree; but I have not found any delivery companies willing to give me a fixed-price or cap contract unless I also sign up for service. I know you have a high-end system, how do you handle service and delivery? What are your plans for preparing for winter amidst upward trend in oil prices?

Constantin

I'm still evaluating my options...

I am currently seriously investigating using B10 on a fixed-price basis. Service comes with that but the technicians are Viessmann-certified. Plus, I hope to have taken the Vitola service class by winter, so I ought to be able to verify the basics. Naturally, I'd leave combustion tuning, etc. to the professionals.

It wouldn't hurt to look around for a provider that is as passionate about the oil system as you are. You can always stay with your present provider, if need be. I would also see if Buderus is as willing to teach interested homeowners about their units as Viessmann was willing to teach me.

Big Ed

Normal

Sorry, it was not a bash. I read in your post what hear every day of the week. Just venting off my watch.......I did not what to come across that you are cheap or the like . Buying a Buderus or a top shelf boiler tell us a lot ....


I am a tech,the grunt in the field. The price of fuel jumps and I get a ear full.(Like I do lunch at the Four Seasons :)I remember the oil embargo of the 70's and when oil first hit $1 a gallon.... Thirty years ago...


..I would not expect to see a $1.49 lock ins again unless your estate burns 40K gallons per year or better.A that price would be too low....

I like to mention the higher the price of fuel the lower the profit margin on the retail end.....

You picked a wise choice on equitment, your consumtion of fuel has been lowered from the equitment side . I am sure your home is tight so service will be the bargin for you now...

Regards
Ed

[Deleted User]

Fixed price plans

for heating oil are hard to come by. Here is what I hear.

1. Erratic wholesale prices.
2. Some legal interpretations of Sarbanes-Oxley that could affect buying product futures.
3. Some State Legislatures looking @ those who offer price cap plans as crooks. They don't like the possibility of the wholesale price dropping & the customer's capped price remaining the same. No word if they are concerned about the other way around.

No offense to Big Ed. But I don't believe anyone is going to get a $1.49 p/gal price this season.

Ted_9

pics

Ed, show us some pictures of your system.

BTW, your right, you should be 100% satisfied.

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Dan_15

Here are pics of my system. The lack of piping on the pressure valves has since been fixed at my insistence. Its a very simply setup without Logamatic or outdoor reset. Dont get me started on oil prices. I still use a lot of oil because I have big old pipes and my system has a lot of water volume to heat and move, and zero insulation in the walls.

Ted_9

Logomatic

So Dan, why not get the R2107 installed before the winter. Add to your comfort and some savings on fuel.

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Dan_15

Good question...Ive been thinking about it, but I am not convinced it will save enough for me to justify the cost. Last winter I used about 1400 gallons of oil. I would set back at night 5* and the system would still take 1.5 hours to recover from setback. During the coldest times the boiler would rest only about 12-15 minutes between cycles and would burn for 5-7 minutes each cycle. I would keep it at 180*-190* range but still need to set the thermostat up to 72-73 to stay comfortable. At 2.5-4.0 GPH (I forget the exact number), I am burning a lot of oil! I dont feel like OD reset or logamatic controls will be able to add a lot to such a beast of a system. But I do recognize that I am missing out on the wonderful integrated controls that Buderus has designed into the system. What do you think?

Ted_9

Well, it looks like you have a converted gravity system. Is this right? If so, and you have large cast iron radiators, you can increase your comfort level while saving some fuel.

Email me and we can go over this some more.

patriotheatingandcooling@comcast.net.

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Big Ed

Reset

The reset could save you up to 30% and is a must on large mass radiation.. It will bring you down to 1000 gallons and with a 400 gallon savings and increase big time on comfort.

Mad Dog_2

I'm sure it wasn't meant as a bash.

Big Ed is a gentle giant. This is the way I see it: When you go cheap...99% of the time you get cheap (service, product, et al.) When you pay a premium, 80% of the time that is what you will get. If you want a company that has their druthers.......they ARE NOT going to run in the rat race - a general rule in life. Do your research, but expect to pay. Good luck.. Mad Dog

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Darin Cook_4

High fuel Usage

Dan, It sounds like it is time to address the lack of insulation in your home. Some dense pack cellulose blown into the walls and air sealing would greatly increase your comfort level and really save on fuel. Just from the picture posted, get insulation on any of the heat piping that is bare. Keep the heat in the pipe and transferred to where you want it, inside the living area. Sounds like you have a large home since the G-215 btu input is any where from 134,000 to 294,000. Any rooms that are not in use much? Some thermostatic radiator valves would allow you to shut down rooms that do not to be kept as warm. Take care of the thermal and pressure boundries in your home first and then get the logomatic 2107. Because chances are your boiler will be oversized when you tighten it up. I do not know what state you are in, but check out the Energy Star program. You can get incentives (money back) and financing options for doing the whatever work is needed. Not too mention scientific data generated such as the amount of air changes per hour going on in your home( those are probably scary numbers)and presented to you. Hope this helps.

P.S. The lack of piping on the pressure relief valve was pure laziness on the installers part. The circulator pumping towards the point of no pressure change was a lack of knowledge on the installers part.

Darin

Leo

Dan what county are you in or what town/city are you in or right near. I work for an oil company in MA and have relatives around the state. There are companies still offering price caps but the deadlines are getting near.

Let Me know,

Leo

Dan_15

Thanks all for your kind advice. I am in Newton, MA and actually my home is quite small. Built in 1921 so no insulation in the walls, just a layer in the attic. It is a converted gravity hot water system that used to feed cast iron radiators, but they were sadly replaced some time ago with big fin/tube convectors. 10 convectors in all, plus a couple of Burnham radiant radiators inset into the bathrooms and a small Baseray in the third bathroom. The installer never told me his heatloss calc, but can tell you the home is not tight and its got to be high. I do often wonder if the boiler is oversized and I could instead be burning .5 GPH and saving $$$ there. I definitely plan to insulate the exposed pipes and do everything I can to minimize heat loss. I am not too good with technicalities of flow rates, etc, and I also wonder if circulators being in the wrong place are dragging me down. Blown in insulation is going to be a huge expense for me, so I am still thinking about the logamatic to save money.

Ken_8

As mentioned before

It is to your advantage to find a heating contractor who does not sell oil. Typically, the oil is the profit maker, the service the drone that is required for the former to take place.

Oil, even when contract priced, is frequently higher than spot prices from guys who just run to the terminal/rack and the same day fill your tank, COD.

Not all, but most oil companies do not have the level of expertise you want in your basement. Filters, nozzles, brush and vacuum - they are all minimally adequate.

But based on the things you've already found that are improperly done, you already knew that.

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steve_97

oil suppliers

This website: http://www.newenglandoil.com/mass.htm keeps track of oil prices in Massachusetts, and may help you find a dealer that offers an attractive fixed or cap price for next winter. Sometimes they get behind in reporting prices, but at the moment they seem to be up-to-date.

There are companies in eastern Massachusetts that only supply oil. My supplier, in Fitchburg, about 30 miles from me, offers a consistently low price. They do not service boilers/furnaces, but have a referal list of installers and service companies in each town/city where they deliver. They ask for feedback on the service referrals so you probably can be confident that the servicer is ok. Usually they open and close their cap price program in June, but last year they didn't offer the program until September.

Dan_15

I am in Newton, MA.

Dan_15

Can the quality of "discount" heating oil be trusted?

Leo

The oil comes from the same sources. Some but very few treat their oil on site. I don't agree with the buy from a company that doesn't do service. I have seen good and bad service from both type companies so you kind of have to shop for someone who impresses you or who you feel comfortable with.

Leo

Dan_15

I have looked at www.newenglandoil.com and it appears to be fairly useless for practical purposes. Most of the oil delivery companies listed there will not venture out of the 5 mile radius of their own town. But its nice to see how little folks are paying for oil in the next town, in comparison to the prices I have to deal with.

Larry Weingarten

Have you...

... considered having a "blower door" test done? It should be the first step, even before insulation, to find the amount of total air leakage and fix the bigger leaks. It would likely be quite cost effective for you.

Yours, Larry

Pat_11

oil company

Try the mass oil heat council website.
www.massoilheat.org

Joe Grosso

Another thing to check

I've seen several jobs where radiators were replaced with convectors. Some people who did these conversions tied the convectors in with piping that was way too small. We're talking 1-1/4" runouts going down to 1/2-inch pipe here. And some of the balancing valves used on these conversions didn't let much water flow through, even when fully open. Obviously it took a long time for enough water to flow thru the big old mains to get heat to these convectors thru such small tie-in piping. The boiler bounced off the high limit all the while this was happening.

I cured one of these by increasing the tie-ins to 3/4-inch (convectors were tapped this size so I couldn't go larger) and using butterfly balancing valves that allowed full flow. The HO then insulated the mains and runouts and it worked beautifully.

Oh yes, I also changed the near-boiler piping to "Pumping Away", as you should too.

soot_seeker_2

logamatic 2107 vs tekmar 256 or 260?

curious?

which significant dollar payback benefits are to be gained by installing a logamatic 2107 over a fractionally priced tekmar 256/260 for this application?

ss

Rodney Summers

bump

Mark K

Some sources for Heating Oil

Hi Dan,

I'm a homeowner in the Boston area as well, with an old house. NStar has a few offers to pay up to 50% of the cost of additional air sealing/blower door testing and insulation. You should check it out if you haven't taken advantage of it yet.

Also, my friends who use oil heat all swear by http://www.massenergy.com which is a non-profit cooperative which offers oil heating services through reputable oil dealers, at a discount to members. It's worth checking out,and they do cover all of eastern MA.

hydronicsmike

Sorry, SS...missed this thread

If you want, I can go over all the features and functions the 260 has and then you can compare it to the 2107. Just call me at 250-545-7749, Ext. 214, if you like.

Mike

Steve Ebels_3

Constantin

You'd have a lot of fun with an analyzer. E-mail me if you want some info on a Testo.

I don't have any doubt in my mind that you'd be able to understand what you would be seeing on the display. I "test" my Vitola many times over the course of a winter just to see what's going on at different water temps. Watching the efficiency over the course of a burn cycle is enlightening also.

Dave Palmer_3

blown in

forget the reset for now, insulate the house,take a loan if you have to. It's the best way to save on fuel period. With the price of fuel the pay back will be a couple of years tops. Don't think you will find a deal on oil this year expect to pay about the same as gasoline. I'm born and bred in the oil business running full service for over 50 yrs. We see the biggest savings with equipment replacement and insulation. I pulled out my own boiler and converted to hot water rads.with a Viessman and insulated. Cut my oil by half. And not all oil is the same,should be but not. Same as you some COD guys call around for best price. Some oil is purier coming back out of storage tanks,new vs old,treated fuel,amount of dye in fuel. Also watch out for companies that deliver both oil and gas.They some (MANY) times don't flush lines and hoses between drops. I've seen tanks that get 5-8 gallons of gas in the tank as they are the first drop.Just my 2 cents,good luck Dave Palmer