Bio study

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Have heard similar figures before for ethanol, biomass, etc. Hate to say but it seems mainly corporate welfare to the likes of Monsanto and Cargill.

Subsidizing food crops doesn't bother me much as it ensures that we have a surplus.

Would LOVE to see some updated studies on wind energy. Last I could find the transmissions used in the mills are VERY energy-hungry to produce while still short-lived. Energy required to manufacture less that what is produced over the life of the transmission.

Some solar is a plus in the energy column even if much of the current renewed interest comes from subsidies. PV laminated to asphalt shingles, IMHO, is one of the stupidest things imaginable.

Mark Hunt

Just read this.


Bio study

Mark H

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Mitch_4

interesting

Article. The truth is somewhere in the middle I'd say. I think it goes to show that you can make numbers say what you want.

Are you pro or anti bio..then do a stude to prove it.

Thanks for the post

[Deleted User]

It's about time

someone ran some numbers about what bio fuels really cost to produce. Next should be cost of production vs. btu content.

However, the conclusion from the Cornell & BERKELEY types is in line w/ what we should expect. Can't believe the SUNY guy either. Gov'mt money has probably poisoned that well.

Nice to see the first skirmishes. Let the battle be joined.

Joe Grosso

That's a whole other issue...

... the notion of looking at total lifecycle costs in terms of energy production is pretty paralyzing to say the least. One website I reviewed claimed that the net benefit of switching to more fuel efficient cars would be negative due to all the energy required to make them. On the other hand, the US seems to be turning over vehicles quite quickly and the resources that go into a Prius are likely to be smaller than the ones going into a Hummer.

As for windmills, the transmission losses are a lot lower these days because they no longer rely on very-complicated mechanical systems to keep the RPMs in the desired range. Instead, they use IGBTs and other solid state devices to rectify and then phase the current. The technology for this is shared among any kind of turbine, from the big-bore GE models that power cities down to the microturbines that we saw at BNL with Alan Mercurio and is getting dramatically less expensive every year.

No, the real issue with wind turbines and similar renewables is siting, i.e. how do you get access to spaces with enough resources and a good connection to the overal energy transfer grid?

As for the stupidity of solar-roofing systems, I agree that the multi-crystaline PV shingles in use today are less than stellar in terms of price/performance.

On the other hand, I'd like to see what the impact of roof-mounted PV systems can be in the acres of office-parks, parking lots, etc. that we have in this country. Considering the very real costs of bringing in more power via long, vulnerable transmission lines, etc. installing more generating capacity close to the need, whose output peaks with demand, etc. may be interesting indeed.

Joe Grosso

Ethanol for cars is problematic...

... it has to be very dry and that process of distilling, "getting", etc. all the water out of it is energy-intensive for sure.

On the other hand, were you to run a solid oxide fuel cell on ethanol or methanol, then your energy equation looks a lot better because the SOFC does not need a "dry" feedstock, in fact it prefers a "wet" one. Thus, the ethanol used in SOFCs could be of the most basic kind, i.e. the stuff that comes straight out of the distilliation collumn (which is 70% pure? I can't remember)

I hope that the uproar will goad politicians to cut the subsidies to the ADMs, Monsantos, etc. of the world and let the market decide what goes into our gas tanks.

Rodney Summers

I have read the

pollution problems from the fertilizers used to generate the large bio-mass needed for decent yields has a huge pollution factor no one wants to even consider.

The real reserach number I saw was on the order of oil having to cost $200/barrel or more to justify the direct, and indirect costs of bio-fuels. This was also based on now prices; not with natural inflation of the bio-fuel being included. With every dollar of infalted bio-fuel, oil would be lockstepped at that new $

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Rodney Summers

I love it when people compare

apples and oranges.

The average American can't even fit into a hybrid. They are touted as the answer and yet a normal family of 2.3 kids could not fit in it, nor could the adults that might drive one.

Then we suggest the Expedition or Hummer or Suburban is a behemoth beast, getting barely 15 MPG and never suggest it can take normal and larger than normal sized humans from pojnt A to point B with ease and have 4 kids in tow as well as their bikes!

Rather than MPG's being the basic criteria, we must consider how many people can and will fit in the vehicle, as well as the chiropractic bills to ease the pain of a 2 hour drive to the shore in one of those econoboxes.

If you are a dwarf, and making a commute from home to the train station 5 miles away, the econobox wins, every time.

But the fantasy bumps into the reality of normal sized people and hauling sporting gear, groceries or the neighbor's dog and kids and no one wants to deal with that.

A car that only serves maybe 3% of the people/miles driven has so little impact as to be a waste of resources to even be considered as viable. In most scenarios where the econobox has any merit, a bicycle, motorcycle or walking holds far more practical and realistic promise. Car pooling would be a contender as well.

The well documented fact of econoboxes being death traps is hushed up to the point of absurdity. Of course the counter debate is that it's the big cars that make the little cars so vulnerable. Fair enough, but what about my van, tractor-trailers, busses and animals still objects? Where do we stop the large vs small death-trap realities?

It is a conundrum to be sure. The answer is not in bio-fuels, nor econoboxes that are hybrids. It is more than likely of some atomic energy resource that will result from the mother of all inventions.

Necessity.

Hydrogen will be the answer. Let's just hope it "in time."

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Joe Grosso

Ah...

I'm happy to let the market figure out what boxes with wheels people want to buy. The last oil crisis spelled the end of the 70's land yachts and the ascenscion of Japanese car manufacturers. If oil prices continue to rise they way they have, the same phenomenom will repeat itself, i.e. the downsizing of most vehicles without the need for intervention. Hopefully, Detroit is better prepared this time.

No amount of hybridization / Hydrogen / whatever can overcome the physical certainty that to stop and start more mass requires more energy than it takes to stop/start less mass, all things being equal. Once fuel prices make a significant dent in peoples incomes, they'll pay closer attention to the issue... that point has not been reached yet, AFAICT.

One interesting study I read today involved a survey of 4000+ air conditioning systems in CA.

• Only 28% of them were running with the intended charges.
  
• 44% had improper air flow
  
• average energy savings for correcting the two was 12.6%.

Well, under said circumstances (and with some of the highest utility rates in the country), it seems as though the energy prices are still not high enough to motivate people to find qualified professionals to service their AC equipment.

I have seen several studies looking into the tipping points for behavioral changes. One of them put it at $3.50/gallon in todays prices, others higher. For all we know, we may see the resurgence of the automobile as a luxury item rather than the ubiquitous enabler it is today. It's not a future I'd look forward to.

One possible bright spot on the horizon is that ITER and DEMO somehow successfully come online a lot quicker than anyone thinks possible. Then we could simply switch everything to fusion reactors and live electric lives... In the meantime, the construction of more coal and fission-powered plants seems increasingly likely.

jeff_51

just once I would like to see

a prius pull my boat!!!!!

jerry scharf_3

Larger Hybrid engines

I know Toyota has them. They have both busses and trucks running with hybrids. These are not the OTR monsters seen in the US, but mid sized units that could make it into larger SUVs, IMO. There is a 250 HP hybrid engine in a Honda Accord.

There are hybrid engines to tow a boat. They would be great at pulling the boat up the ramp, more low end torque than you can imagine. What they won't do is pull the boat up a 6% grade at 70MPH. That expecatation and fuel economy are not compatible. The OTR trucks get this, and go up the hills at 45.

jerry

Rodney Summers

The exploitation of

diesels seems closer to an interim solution than many hybrids. The long term durability, excellent mileage and high torque potentials are not given much press.

The new Ford Powerstroke has been touted as the major breakthrough for cars and small trucks. There is no major funding however to make it truly competitive. All eyes are currently fixed on hybrids; at the expense of credible and superior existing technology IMHO.



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Joe Grosso

Diesel technology is but a step in the right direction...

...yes, they achieve up to 30% better gas mileage while running at steady state and in environments where automotive fuel prices are high, diesels can be found in anything from tiny econoboxes to the largest of trucks. When combined with a turbo and direct injection, these engines can be surprisingly sprightly, very powerful across a broad range of RPMs, and fuel efficient to boot. The EU producers have even managed to slim down the weight of Diesels to be compatible with most cars.

However, also realize that the infrastructure for fuel in the USA is set up for gasoline. Every refinery here maximizes the gasoline portion / cracking capacity, because that's where the money is. Switching capacity over to Diesel will be a long-term process, particularly if you want clean Diesel technology that requires low-sulfur fuel to work well with the catalytic converters / particulate filters that are available in some markets.

Another thing to keep in mind with any internal-combustion engine is the conundrum of stop-start. No matter what IC technology you throw at the problem, IC engines will be less efficient than electric motors when it comes to delivering torque at very low RPM in vehicles. Thus, hybrid vehicles are an ideal choice for commuters and others who cover a lot of distance while encountering a lot of stop-start conditions (taxis, buses, local delivery vans, etc.). Similarly, hybrid technology does little to nothing for long-distance trucks...

Like you, I agree that the manufacturers of IC engines still have a few aces up their collective sleeves. For example, if you took a clean-slate approach to designing an engine, you could incorporate a large starter/alternator/regenerator into the motor and achieve a good amount of the benefits of hybridization without the need for multiple electric motors in the tires, etc.

However, the car OEMs are about the most conservative manufacturers in existence when it comes to introducing useful technology that is not driven by marketing. GM spent $1BN to develop electric cars and recently landfilled the whole lot, even though they were still working great, the users were willing to pay for them, etc. Ford had such great foresight in terms of hybrids that they had to lease the Toyota technology, etc.

Steve Ebels_3

The urge

Like hydronics where the urge to purge "air" is inexcorable, the urge to add refrigerant to an A/C system is readily apparent in this study. Scan the chart on page 1-217 and look at the number of units that were overcharged and the percentage they were overcharged by. I would guess that a fair number that showed an undercharge had leaky caps or lines which would skew the overcharge data even more.

Just goes to show the importance of a qualified tech who actually cares about what he's doing.

Another example of caring enough to stick with something til it's right: I ran across a GSHP last week where the thermostat wiring was messed up in such a way that the e-heat elements ran on any call for heat. The HO said their electric bills were so high that he discontinued the use of the GSHP and installed a wood stove. Bills were in the $450/month range in a modestly sized, 2003 built home. It took about an hour of head scratching to find the wierdness in the t-stat wiring but that was the only problem with the system. Cost the poor guy about $2,400 in electric bills the first winter of operation.

You have to wonder if the home owners in the A/C study realize what the cost of not having it done right can add up to IRT their utility bills month after month.

Steve Ebels_3

One has to wonder

What could be acheived with a diesel hybrid. Several folks I know routinely get 50+ mpg on the highway with diesel cars, VW Jetta's mainly. Add hybrid technology to that and I'd think you could see 65 to 70 MPG peak with 45-50 being the average.

I have to agree with you Constantin IRT the refining capacity problem for diesel fuel. Traditionally diesel fuel ran about 15-25 cents less per gallon than gasoline. For the last year or so it has been reversed in this area of the country.

Joe Brix

bio-fuel costs

While all the bio based fuels require energy to produce, I think that you have to factor in the saving of not processing bio wastes in a land fill or incinerator. The costs to grow a crop are large and must be factored into the equation. I'd still rather see money spent on paying someone to grow something rather then paying them not to grow anything.

Unknown

apparently

you have not seen the RX400H from Lexus??

full size SUV, 36MPG, 4K more then a standard.

just rode in one... WOW!!!

Biggest problem, people don't move away from your vehicle when you go to leave your parking spot... NO NOISE!!!

Very very cool vehicle.

http://www.lexus.com/models/rx_hybrid/index.html

Being a motor head AND a HVAC distributor (needing large space to deliver to my calls) I have fallen in love with this vehicle.

wheels

Joe Grosso

Yup...

... my mum had a HP installed in FL. After one month of operation, the electric bill came to $2,000. Why? To make a long story short, the same kind of dyslexia you encountered, i.e. the emergency heat strips coming on whenever the T-stat called for heat OR for cooling.

Thus, the HP was trying to cool the house on one end, while the emergency in-duct heat strips were heating it on the other end. You'd think that the manufacturers of HP units would figure out a way to interlock the emergency heat strips to a point where they won't fire unless actually needed, but I digress.

Steve Ebels_3

The problem is

Most, no make that all of the GSHP's I have ever serviced, default to the heating mode when there is no power present from the "B" terminal on the stat.

The HO in this particular case called because the cooling side of the system did not work. He had given up on the high $$.$$ for the heating side, assuming like the tech said "That's just the way they work". Once there, I noticed it acting strange and tried jumping the terminals on the unit. This proved to run everything just fine. Checking out the stat proved that it was functionig properly also. That left the wire which I followed back to where it exited the basement and went up through the floor. No cuts or bare spots found.

A HHhhmmmmm moment ensued.

Deciding that it had to be the t-stat wire, I took a closer look at it with my flashlight in the interior of the wall. There before my eyes was a cluster of wire nuts. Why it was originally installed that way is beyond me. Replacing the wire and correcting the connections solved the problem.

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Why not

subsidize something that reduces total fuel usage?

Solar domestic hot water....what would be the effect if we just used what fuel we have intelligently? You don't have to be a hippie or suffer cold showers to have a couple panels on the roof.

Why not make yearly heating appliance inspections mandatory? What would be saved by taking all of the 60% or less combustion efficiency heating appliances out of service?

It all affects the reasons why we're looking for alternative energy in the first place. Why subsidize ethanol instead of subsidizing the elimination of electric water heaters in Las Vegas?

-Andrew