Why Not Copper Pipe around the Boiler?

Jeff_53

I've had several contractors give me bids on a new
steam boiler. Everything I've read in Dan's books
and on 'The Wall' says that copper for near the boiler piping is inferior to black pipe. And yet, every contractor that came to my house proposed to use copper. When
I asked them why not use black pipe, they told me that
copper was 'standard issue' in their installation procedures. And while they were all very professional and seemingly knowledgeable about steam heat, this insistance on copper pipe has me concernd.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You

Bob Schultz

Here's why

First: When you heat up copper pipe, it expands a great deal. When its heated to the extremes found in steam piping (upwards of 240 degrees in some cases), it will expand right apart at the soldered joints. Threaded steel pipe will not.
Second: Longevity. I've seen what happens to the inside of thick steel pipe from the effects of dirt and oil. It usually takes about 20 years or longer for the steel to get eaten through. I would guess it would take about 5 years or less to eat through thin walled copper.
Finally: Not just threaded pipe. Insist that they all use CAST iron fittings, not MALLEABLE iron. They cost more, but when its time to repair and or replace the pipe and or fittings, cast iron can be broken apart, and mallaeble iron must be cut out.

gerry gill

thier insistance on copper

has me concerned too...keep looking..or try this approach- hand the contractor a copy of an installation manual, tell him you want it piped this way..and tell him steel pipe and cast iron fittings..those that don't run away you deal with...best to keep looking..your good steam guys won't compromise on thier choice of steel or cast..

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Bob Schultz

Excellent point Gerry. I never thought about the manufacturer's instructions. Not ONE of them would even consider copper piping.

joel_19

Copper

They want to use copper because it is faster and cheaper and they may not have a pipe threader capable of doing the job . They also may be afraid that if they do it with black it will cost more and then you will choose the guy who is cheaper and doing it in copper . That is a very real fear it happens to me all the time . The only good part is i tell them to keep my card and many times get to go back a couple months or years later and do it again . I am ok with using copper for feed tank piping on some two pipe systems but that's about it.

Constantin

Hey joel,

Isn't it also OK to use copper in the lowest section of the return piping on a steam system? I seem to recall a couple of installs that were done that way to help deal with the corrosion, mud under the waterline or somesuch.

However, I totally agree with you that a properly executed iron/steel header is not only a joy to behold but that it is also likely harder to install. On the other hand, dry steam helps with the fuel efficiency and the long life of the appliance. Like you, I would do it right, or not do it at all.

I'm also glad that the replacement business is working out for you.

Al Corelli

i agree about the steel "above the water line".

But, how do you pipe a drop header with street els and NOT use malleble fittings? Last I checked, they don't make cast street els.
9 times out of ten, we cut out nipples instead of banging cast fittings. I don't want to make leaks. The cast/malleble debate is lost on me. We do too many drop headers to be concerned, and the benefit of breaking fittings is not a benefit.
However, we WILL NOT use copper in the header or near boiler piping. No way.

Unknown

Here's four reasons!

Here is a copy of a Notice regarding use of copper pipe and fittings for near boiler steam piping right out of one of our Installation Manuals. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

clammy

copper

They may seem knoweledgable but if they want to use copper find some one else it may be standard issue for them but it doesn't make it right .Do yourself and your system a favor and find a pro to do it in steel and do it correctly may a nice drop header to dry your steam out and make your new boiler really shine and the up side is your comfort and possible a reduction in fuel use .Are your steam main insulated ?Peace clammy

Unknown

Exactly

When I see a post about using only cast iron fittings on steam , I always ask why ? What makes it more suitable over malleable ? The main response is " that's how the dead men did it " , or " it can break off if you need to repipe " . Nothing about longevity or performance . I do like the fact that you cal blast off a cast ell , but with today's fittings and nipples I bet you bend the threads before the ell breaks off .

Even here where steam is a major player , I can't get everything I need for a steamer in cast iron if it's over 2 inch . Well , maybe if I shop around making calls all day and driving like a mad man to track em down . I'll break tradition and buy all malleable , and it'll be there just as long as cast iron .

Unknown

Constantin

I started in the business in 86 installing steam boilers mainly , and we used copper on the returns exclusively . My old boss was using it 12 years before I joined him . My present company uses copper for the returns . A partner of mine , Phil has been working with my new co. over 30 years using copper on the return .

The question becomes - if copper is not a suitable product for return piping , where's all the failures ? By a large margin our replacement steamers are stll functional when we replace them , and the ones that are dry fired are usually 50+ years old with all black returns .

Bob Schultz

It all comes back to what Gerry Gill said earlier. No matter what your particular practices are, and how many decades you've been doing it that way, and how you've never had a failure......etc; etc; etc.
The manufacturer's instructions rule. If you pipe outside of their specifications, you're on your own if something goes wrong.

Unknown

Good point

Now , can you name any boiler manufacturer that specifically forbids the use of copper ? Peerless , Weil Mclain , Slant Fin and Burnham do not , to name a few .

Steam Bunny

Amen!

and, as a home owner, the installation manuals were so nebulous it was extremely difficult, if not impossible, for this homeowner to spec the near boiler piping! Someday take a bit of time to read the manuals, wipe your brain of what you know to be so obvious & really read them. If it weren't for "Lost Art" and you folk, I'd still be neurotically stuffing steel wool into the sections and pouring oatmeal into our newly departed boiler.

And, because we home owners are so ignorant, those of you who passionately want to do it right get undercut by the shortcut Charlies who, most likely, don't know any better- or care.

A side line thought- Set up your computers to take your bids & automatically calculate what it would cost for you to do the same job in copper, welded, high velocity vs. low, etc. Use some of this fabulous automation to help educate those of us who want to do it right.

jackchips_2

Hi Glenn,

This reads more like what you should do if copper is used. Is there anything in Burnhams's manuals that forbids it?

Has the Copper Developement Association put out any directives?

Jack

Jeff_53

IOM Manual

I took Gerry Gill's advise and found the manufacture's installation manual and although it does not expressly 'forbid' copper piping, it does say, "USE THREADED FITTINGS FOR MANIFOLD PIPING TO PROVIDE FLEXIBILITY FOR THERMAL EXPANSION." In addition, all the illustrations show the use of threaded pipe. I plan to show this to the contractor.

Constantin

Don't forget...

They may be professionals, yet their expertise may not be in steam systems.

I would trust Dan's writing and the vast knowledge and experience you find here on the Wall. These contractors have nothing financial to gain from telling you how to do it right - they simply care to make it right. For all you know, the only reason that the contractors you've met so far in your area no longer install steel headers is that competition with hacks has forced them to go down in installation quality.

Given that you're going to be living with this system, not the installers, I would insist on on a proper steel/iron header following the instructions in the IO manuals. If you have enough height above the water level (A dimension?), a simple header might do it. If not, go for a drop header which will help making dry steam. You could always inspire your installers with some of the pictures saved by Dan in the Steam Piping section of the library.