Looking for the best radiant solution

Dan C._2

Hiring a contractor that knows what they are doing and you shouldn't have any problems.

Dan_15

Looking for the best radiant solution

I have been reading, with great interest, many of the threads by professionals in the home heating/cooling business. I am building a brand new home just outside Boston, 5000 sf (1500 basement, 1500 first floor, 2100 second floor (add 600 sf over garage). Nothing too unusual, mostly standard ceiling heights, area over garage is 10' ceilings...no crazy two story window treatments.

Our plan is to do radiant throughout the home...PEX in the basement slab and garage slab and CP on the other two floors with 3" qtr sawn white oak flooring with area rugs and ofcourse tile in baths and mudroom. Central a/c throughout.

I would welcome any suggestions on a total home heating/cooling solution. I have one chance to get this right and would welcome comments.

Thx. Jim

Ted_9

Tekmar

I suggest using Tekmars TN4 control systems.

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Ted_9

I second that

what Franco said.

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joel_19

so jim

Why haven't you called yet ? www.boucherenergy.com Everything you want heating , cooling one stop shopping . just please tell me you don't want it next week ... if you are outside our area try www.comfortableheat.net Lots of good eastern Mass guys can be found there.

Dan C._2

or try

try find a pro on this website.

jim_60

best heating/cooling solution

Yes of course, going to use a pro...but what I am really looking for is your opinion....maybe a re-phrase...if you were going to build your own home in the NE and wanted the best HVAC solution....what would that be?

Ted_9

Tekmar

I was serious. The TN4 can control all aspects of a properly designed radiant/hvac system.

but you've researched. Now its time to interview heating professionals for the project.

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jim_60

best heating/cooling solution

thx Ted...I appreciate your interest...but, I am not done researching quite yet....

if you were to be the professional doing the job what radiant system manufacturer/manifolds/controllers/etc/AC units so forth would you use. I would gather Lennox for the A/C units based on your web site?

Ted_9

System

Jim, we would sit down and go over the options with you.
That's why I said you should talk to the contractors now. It's best to find a contractor you trust and beleive in. Period. The equipment is second to that.

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jim_60

best radiant solution

Ted:

I am looking for feedback not a contractor but thanks for your comment about the Tekmar controler. Best to you.

shawn_10

hey joel

Hey joel I am a heating contractor a little north of you in mass.I checked out your website great looking work I am curios where you are getting the diamond plated steel and the price per sheet.thanks

Ted_9

OK

OK Jim. Here's one scenario:
Tekmar TN4
Viessmann Vitodens boiler
Wirsbo radiant products.
Panel radiators for back up heat where needed.
Possibly Hydro air units for a/c and backup heat and humidity.
Nortec steam humidifier.
HRV and or Hepa system
Lennox condensers with R410A

But this may not fit your project.

Best to you.

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Unknown

Hi Jim,

I think you'd have better luck with more specific questions. You just laid out a major project, which is a great deal more than "which radiant panel is best" or "what kind of HRV do you guys like and why?". For a total system view like that, for a major system, the devil is in the details and can have a great impact on decisions made for particular equipment.

For a first step though, do whatever you can to minimize your loads. ICF's, SIP's, spray insulation, good windows... get that envelope tight and solid. For a major mechanical system especially, you stand to save quite a bit on the mechanicals right out of the gates by minimizing your heating/cooling loads in the first place. Overhangs.. deciduous trees.. you name it.

Step two is making sure whoever is running your load calculations (of course, they are.. if they don't, walk) knows of these features and accounts for them in the load calcs.

Step three is to ask questions of the contractors who wish to bid the project, and doublecheck their answers here

Best of luck!

jerry scharf_3

how far do you want to go?

Jim,

"the best" is both subjective and can take many forms. These are my personal opinions of the best "flavors" or radiant.

Flavor 1 of the best: Do like Geoff McDonell does. Super insulate the house (triple glazed windows, super high wall insulation, insulate to the roof deck, detailed air tightness sealing ...) then do radiant ceiling for both heating and cooling and add ventilation, filtration and dehumidification as needed.

flavor 2 of the best: Insulate the house very well (moving toward Geoff's level), then use warmboard or radiant engineering thinfin on sleepers for the floors. A well installed vitodens (or other high quality quality c/m boiler) set up for constant circulation and danfoss radiant floor passive thermostatic valves.

flavor 3: similar to #2, but change to a high end active control system (tecmar, caleffi) and on/off control valves and pumps.

Flavor 4: Ground source heat pump to a system with a buffer tank, temperature mixing stage and either flavor 2 or flavor 3 controls.

For A/C, the choices are much narrower. You can pick from a range of air handlers, coils and condensers, but the design doesn't change that much. There are residential zoning controls you can add to these, but I don't think they are that great (nowhere near the range and accuracy of the heating side.) If you do flavor 4, high efficiency comes with the package.

I went with a custom control and flavor #2. I still consider Geoff's design concepts the gold standard. If I ever do it again, it will almost certainly be done Geoff's way.

All these designs are USELESS without a contractor who understands the designs well enough to be able to translate these concepts into a working implentation for your house. You need to find one who can show you other residential projects that incorporate the design concepts or the ability to successfully incorporate new design concepts.

The good news is there are a number of wallies from your neck of the woods. As a cautionary tale, search the archive for Dan Foley's vitodens fiasco. He did the design on a vitodens system, then the owner shopped the design around and got someone to do it at half the price. A year later Dan got to do it the second time and just about everything, including the ruined boiler, was thown out and replaced.

hope this helped,

jerry

Ron Schroeder_3

OFMA recommend narrower boards

Oak Flooring Manufacturers Association recommend narrower boards to reduce incidence of flooring failure in areas where there are great humidic changes between Winter and Summer. This is the case regardless of heating type or installation. They would like to see 2" or less width if possible. For the wider look, and it is attractive, consider an engineered floor product. You will get just as good a service life, up to three sandings/refinishings, no toxic fumes in your home as the product comes factory finished, and greater product stability.

Your question was framed with the paradigm that you have one chance to get this right. Individual motorized mixing valves for each floor system and a comprehensive system control on a coaxially vented condensing boiler if NG is your fuel are in your best interest. If oil is the fuel of choice there is really only one premier boiler that can be meet your best strategy requirements and that is the Viessmann Vitola with Vitotronic 300 control strategy.

deltat

Ted is right in that the contractor/homeowner relationship is much more important than the homeowner/product manufacturer relationship. However, that being said…

We are in the northeast with most of our jobs in Massachusetts and NH and have had excellent success with the following products: Viessmann or Buderus boilers, Riello burners, Viega Propress and radiant, Viega or Tekmar controls, Unico air conditioning with Trane or Rheem 12-14 seer condensers. We always recommend that if you have the option to use Icynene insulation you should.

It is also very important that the contractor you hire perform a detailed heat loss calculation. With radiant heat there is very little room for guesswork. Good luck.

GMcD

Yeah- what Jerry said...

I keep saying that the lowest life cycle cost component of the mechanical and lighting system is the window. Get the windows right and your 75% of the way there. Windows have no moving parts, need an occasional cleaning, and last a lifetime if Dennis the Menace isn't around.

For every $ spent on the building envelope, it's a dollar saved on the cost of the heating/cooling plant, and dollars in your pocket for NOT having to pay ever increasing energy costs for the life of the building.

"Total comfort system" as per the diagram at Robert Bean's site www.healthyheating.com. Just replace the "boiler" and "chiller" boxes with a geo-exchange water/water heat pump and you can have a very low energy system, that with the addition of a couple of photovoltaic panels and solar hot water collectors, you could easily be "off the grid".

joel_19

Diamond

Thanx for the positive feedback . We design our own ductwork and i have a small metal shop who makes it prett much exsclusivly for us .I get the diamond plate from them I think we had 4 sheets on the Vitodens it was 750$ . Sure it's exspensive but it looks cool . I figure people are dropping all this coin on alloy wheels for the car we might as well do it on the boiler wall .

joel_19

original question

ok , I'll bite .

Viessman Vitola 2oo or Vitodens.
300 controll and valves.
Maybe a tekmar tn4 for theremostat feedback.
Tn4 stat in every room.
climate panel every where.
Variable speed ECM airhandlers.
Airhandlers set up for hydro air.
York Affinity 15 SEER two stage compressors.
Merv 11 or better air filters.
Uv lights on each system.
Arzel zoning working in conjunction with the ECM motors and two stage condensors.
Steam humidifieres from Nortec.
Thermastor dehumidifiers on each airhandler to remove humidity when cooling isn't needed.
Energy recovery ventilators since you'll be going with icycneene insulation.
Strictly propress fittings , no ugly solder joints.


Now the best part . Instead of a diamond plate wall How about a polished copper wall , clear coated then all the boiler room pipe would be done in propress but all pipe and fittings would be STAINLESS STEEL to contrast with the polished copper back drop .


Ohh and if Vitodens I've always hated the white color looks like a freakin Frigidare . I would strip it down and have a body shop paint it Viessmann Silver or the color of your choice . With that though the Boucher Energy World Class logo comes custom air brushed on , not just the standard engraved plate , no exceptions.

Sooo when do we start ?

jim_60

thanks for the feedback

Thx. for the comments, suggestions. You guys are a credit to your professions and there is nothing better than people who are passionate about their work. I appreciate the time it takes to share knowledge and I do the same in my profession all the time--so returns the karma. This is a very big $$$ budget item for me and there is a lot of mis-information out there.

On boilers: Seems like Viessman is leading the pack...but also leading with high price. Is Buterus up to the task on a NG job.

I hear Viega brands their climate panels for Wirsbo to use as quick trak? Hmmm?

Ted_9

Buderus

Is excellent product and 90% of our heat installs.

And yes, Wirsbo's Quick track is the same as Viega's Climate panel.

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jim_60

windows

I am going with Marvin Low E II double pane windows with argon in between. These have amazing insulating ability and UV reflectivity...etc...and they should for the price.
I have been on the fence on the Icynene...I am leaning towards doing fiberglass in 2x6 construction (properly installed) and supplementing this with Icynene at joist headers, windows, bays, etc...to add additional insulation. I am thinking of using Insultarp as an underslab insulator.

joel_19

B VS V

buderus ia also a fine product however they are not all cheaper than V it depends upon your exact set up . I prefer v over B in most cases myself but it's like choosing between BMW or Mercedes or infiniti/Lexsus , not a bad decision either way.

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Heaters

Last I heard, Buderus had not yet gotten their wall hung heater classified as a boiler. That's likely part of the price difference, and perhaps indicative of commitment? Viessmann does nothing half way. If you spring for the Vitodens you will never be dissatisfied.

In a full radiant installation, I would recommend a Vitodens boiler with extruded plates either above or below the subfloor. Tekmar's indoor temperature feedback does not do much for you with a Vitodens because they do not interface with the Viessmann Comfortrol control. Tekmar's thermostats are very nice. I specify them almost exclusively.

Carpet is very effective at cutting a radiant floor's output. Steel panel radiators or radiant walls/ceilings work very well in carpeted areas. Extruded plates can also be used for radiant wall applications. Avoid sheet metal plates; they are little more than shiny tubing holders.

Panel radiators work extremely well with the Vitodens and thermostatic radiator valves. To reduce the system cost, I would recommend using more radiators and less radiant floor. It reduces the labor number significantly.

When it comes to finding a good contractor, it can be very difficult to determine which are good and which are bad. The detail contained in their estimate is pretty indicative of their attention to detail when it comes to your heating system. What kind of warranty do they give on their workmanship? Do they service what they sell?

-Andrew

GMcD

Watch the thermal bridging details.

2x6 walls with insulation won't give you what you think you will get. Due to thermal bridging at all the studs and the top and bottom plates, the overall R value of the wall is about 65% of the R-value of the insulation. A 6" stud wall with R-30 insulation is really only R-22 overall.

The windows you've described are what I call "pretty good" but you can get better. Southwall Heat Mirror or Kawneer 7500 series triple pane is what I call "very good". Excellent glass gets you into the 4-element Heat Mirror (Heat Mirror Quad) or Visionwall 4-element. Add krypton gas fill and you can have windows with low solar heat gain coefficient, and an insulating value of R-11, but still have darn good visible light transmittance. Yeah, expensive, but you get what you pay for, and with the rising cost of energy and the reduced cost of the heating/cooling plant, they are not that big an overall premium in the total cost of the house.

jerry scharf_3

Let's not take pot shots at manufacturers

Andrew,

The comment about the lack of H stamp for the Buderus condensing boiler was a cheap shot. Everyone knows that they are in process on getting that. Everyone knows that Buderus is committed to their market, their installers and their customers. They chose to get the product out on the market where they could to start, and delay only in states where the ASME is required.

jerry

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

But

My point was simply that Viessmann does nothing half-way. That's why the price is higher. It's a commitment to quality. I've seen many comments toward menufacturers in the past regarding a lack of an ASME rating. My comment is not untrue. If it was something over which Buderus had no control, it would be a cheap shot.

-Andrew

Unknown

fiberglass is less than stellar insulation, even properly installed. It's "rating" is deceiving.. some studies show it loses effectiveness as it gets colder out due to convective currents within the insulation itself! Foam, rigid or blown, is a better choice.

Insultarp is likewise far less than stellar. Again, rigid foam is the answer, underneath and around the perimeter edges. Insultarp is about an R1 by itself... not worth the money.

jack z_2

new house

Your house sounds like a carbon copy of the the I built last year. All radiant-Pex embedded in the basement and Viega climate panels in the first and second floor. I used a Buderus oil fired boiler and a Buderus indirect water heater. I insulated with foam and used quartersawn white oak flooring on the first floor and carpeting on the second floor. Last year was our first full heating season and I was very pleased with the comfort of the radiant system and with the amount of oil used. I am in NE Pennsylvania-our winters are pretty cold here. You can email me if you want to pick my brain further.