We should experiment on Al Gore's house

Kevin O. Pulver

It would sure be easier to sniff out a leak wouldn't it?
And have any of you ever seen the old "Icy Ball" that was made by Crosley I believe? Basically: Two spheres connected by a tube and ammonia was the refrigerant.
You would re-charge it every day by heating it over a kerosene burner and maybe putting the other one in a bucket of water. It was a compressor with no moving part but the refrigerant. Anyway, one ball hung in an insulated box and the other hung outside the box. It got cold enough to make a bit of ice, and I've seen shop-built repros on Google made of black pipe. It looks like it would be real handy for camping, and something some of you guys might enjoy tinkering around with.
If I were sharp enough to put a link here I would. (sorry)
Just Google Crosley Icy Ball.
Kevin

Steve Ebels_3

Here's an Idea for a news story

We, I, someone should get in touch with Al Gore and propose that a group of us do an energy makeover on his personal dwelling. What better opportunity would we, collectively as heating industry professionals, ever have to illustrate the positive things that can be done for energy conservation and GW through application of modern heating/cooling technology.

I also think it would be a fine lesson for Al to see what it really costs the average HO to make these improvements. You have to know that even he would probably have his eyes opened when examining the ROI. It would definitely give him a chance to put his money where his mouth is.

John Hall is coming to mind as the point man. We need someone to step up for design, a work coordinator and a bunch of guys who would be willing to go there and work. Some manufacturers who would step up with product would be highly useful also. I'm not saying this is a charity event in any way, just that some manufacturer input and engineering would be helpful.

How's that for a wild Monday Moanin' idea.??

Gene_3

positive??

did we say "illustrate the positive things that can be done for energy conservation and GW "

as in GW Bush??

surely you jest?

he's an oil man, big oil, not heating oil companies, he has no ties to you really, he just wants people to burn more fuel

I'm sorry but I do not recall GW doing much with energy ( cept raisin' prices) or the environment these past 7 years

although if I am wrong please list these incidences seperatley

touring bio fuel facilities does not count, actual incidences or legislation


If he was wouldn't he have mandated System 2000's, Buderus's, 90+ gas units, condensing, Solar and given 100% tax breaks to encourage this?????????

How'bout 100% tax breaks for buying a bio or elec vehicle???

As for Al Gore I am not familiar with his house, but seeing that he is rich it must be big and if he has not done everything to make it a efficient as possible, well, he left the door open for ridicule, didn't he??'

It doesn't make him wrong and GW right or vice versa

it's just the facts, they're both wrong maybe??

FredR

GW= Global Warming?

DanHolohan

I can't

stand it.

Kevin O. Pulver

Cheer up Dan

At least I didn't join the doggy pile on that other thread!
And I admit I was tempted. It looked like a bad hockey game from here. Kevin

DanHolohan

I apprecite that,

and believe me, you were very much on my mind. ;-)

Dave_4

I faxed Al Gore...........

Steve,

I think that is a great idea!!!!!!!!

I faxed Al Gore and offered to do some consultation work for free. I am sure he gets offers like this every day though. If he responds back I'll include all of the wallies and we will make it a team effort. We'll experiment with Al Gores house. We'll install the latest and best. Most energy effiecient. Also some kind of alternet energy source too, like geo or solar.

JR

Gene_3

I sure hope

you don't think Global warming is a joke

this is the same stuff that went on with the Ozone Depletion, it/they are related in that they were both detected at the same time.

for some reason though we focused on Ozone and dropped Global Warming.

The main problem is the term "Global Warming" is not accurate to describe the phenominon.

If we were intelligent as a species we'd be dangerous, it's not about GW or Gore it's about the freakin planet and if you did some research with an open mind you'd see that we have some serious situations mostly with Antartica and Greenland.

If Greenlands ice keeps melting there could be a sudden major ice flow off the land mass, which has started to happen, which will stop ALL currents in ALL of the oceans.

and then we are done

If we think that any emmision of any gas will not affect anything, who are we fooling?

You might want to check these links, in Europe they are begining to ban R-134A and other HFC's, you guys that also do cooling/refr better listen up

HFC's have 25,000 times more GWP(Global Warming Potential) than Co2 and are being banned in EU and other nations.

Automakers are already looking for new technology, just like when CFC's were banned, we survived, IN FACT, WE GREW, we needed more techs = more jobs

Just because we are not in the Kyoto Treaty does not mean that automakers are going to make cars for the USA and then others for the rest of the world.

It is going to happen. read, learn

http://www.euractiv.com/en/sustainability/fluorinated-gases-climate-change/article-117491

Fluorinated gases and climate change[fr][de]
Published: Tuesday 17 August 2004 | Updated: Wednesday 30 August 2006


EU lawmakers in January 2006 struck an agreement on a proposal to cut down emissions of fluorinated gases as part of the Kyoto protocol on climate change. F-gases are widely used in refrigeration and air conditioning but have a high global warming potential and can sometimes stay in the atmosphere for thousands of years. The agreement mainly seeks to improve the containment and recovery of F-gases and imposes regular checks on industrial refrigeration installations. After much discussion, the compromise allows countries like Denmark and Austria to maintain stricter controls than elsewhere in Europe until 2012. A phase-out of HFC-134a in car air conditioning has also been approved as of 2011 with a complete ban applying from 2017.

Kevin Pulver

Al Gore is a national treasure

And it's wrong for this generation to selfishly keep him to ourselves. Therefore, I propose we take up a collection for cyrogenic suspension. We'll put 'im in the freezer (right NOW) with ol' Walt Disney so future generations can benefit.
Kevin

DanHolohan

Gene.

Enough is enough. Let's move on.

Gene_3

sorry you feel that way

about your planet, um, our planet

what I find "interesting" is whenever I bring up the facts about HFC refrigerants and what IS going to happen within the next 10 years, nobody wants to talk about it

bewildered I guess would better describe my reaction

we may be going back to old technology as NEW again, I'm thinking amonia absorption systems or something along those lines, I think Asian countries are already using them more

quite possibly if someone starts a thread making snide comments about a public official, in this case Gore, that should be adressed as opposed to striking someone down with the facts who tries to educate

Do I like Gore? no, I like his wife even less after the rock lyric thing

let's move on then, peace, phasers on stun

Steve Ebels_3

This is NOT a Global warming rehash!!!

Steve Ebels_3

This is NOT a Global warming rehash!!!

Take that stuff somewhere else. Whatever you're going to say has already been said on the 400+ thread.

I repeat

This thread is not intended to start another GW meltdown!!
(GW = Global warming BTW, not President Bush)

I just thought it would be neat to see if we could collectively do a makeover of Mr Gore's house ala something like This Old House.

I'm serious.

Gene_3

cool

If he responds repost the results, that would be interesting.

The larger the home/building the larger the savings, there should be incentive.

Dave_4

Bad news...............

Steve,

I called Al Gore myself. I called and I got through( not to Al). I also faxed too. Basically Beth (Not Al Gore himself most likely an aid), told me that they already started the improvements. I basically wouldn't take no for an answer and kept plugging our abilities away at her. She did seem to listen. Even gave me an address to send a proposal to. She, still was very adiment though. She kept repeating that they already started that project.

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jp_2

Steve,

lets do YOUR house!!!!!

Perry_3

I volunteer...

If someone is looking to redo a house similar to "This Old House" as Steve suggested; and put in all kinds of energy improvements...

I volunteer my house.

Let me know when youall can get here with what Mfr's. I at least have the basic heating system taken care off..

Perry

Dave_4

Where do you live?

Perry,

Where do you live. Once we know that we can find a good contractor for you.

JR

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Forgive me Dan

Steve:

Again I agree.

Given those consumption figures, I'll wager 2-1 that it's forced air heating. "Everyone" supposedly knows that hydronic heating is more efficient than forced air heating.

Gore's home is in a mixed climate where heating and/cooling will predominate based on HIGHLY AND NATURALLY variable weather.

Also a pool house and a main house. Perhaps put fine hydronics in one and "upgrade" the forced air in the other and make a comparison.

He's certainly not poor and certainly has interest...

Perry_3

OK:

A "this old house" type improvement involves lots of free stuff and labor. Yes the homeowner pays some of that; and I could do that.

Let me give you an idea of my ideas for energy improvements to the house:

First meet my heating system (see picture). Already "paid for" - but I'd appreciate any help with what it cost as it hurt in other ways. I'm probably OK with my existing heating and normal hot water. I see no reason to replace my cast iron baseboard.

But the house needs a lot of other improvements:

I have installed thermal-gard windows on two sides of the house. Could you get them to donate the windows for the other two sides? It sure makes a difference.

I need a summer humidity control and air conditioning system (actually winter humidity would not hurt either). The key space now available to run ducting would be tear out the chimney and run ducting to the second floor ceiling into the attic crawl space (does not have any normal access). Of course you would have to demolish some interior walls and redo them to get the chimney out and the new ducting in.

While we are in that crawl space; properly insulate it - and vent the attic. In addition add a upstairs bathroom vent system.

Oh, the walls could use better insulation. They have 2" rockwool so you can't really blow more in effectively. Strip the house (outer walls) down to studs, and reinsulate properely (there are a few tricks to that given the construction of the house). While we are at it I can rewire. Then put back the plaster walls.

Oh, finish the basement walls and add a heating circuit. Now that my heating system normally runs at 90 - 100 F much of the time - and I no longer have a huge boiler radiator in the center... it gets cool down there in the winter.

Solar domestic hot water assist would not hurt - and I'm sure would tie in nicely with my Vitocell water heater. Viessmann might be willing to donate to match their boiler and hot water tank?

Finally, Why not solar cells on the garage in back?

Lots of energy improvements could be done.

I'm sure I missed some items.

But that is what a "this old house type home makeover" is for.

Oh, I'm in Wisconsin... Along lake Michagan about an hour or so north of Milwaukee.

I'll be waiting for you and others to line up all the donated stuff and find a contractor...

Perry

Dave_4

Not quite that easy......

Perry,

None of this is new.

First off many wallies have been installing energy efficient heating equipment tied to a geothermal or solar system for many years now. Before an inconvenient truth came along. I am afraid you are going to have to pay for the whole thing. We can find you a good contractor but they are going to need to be paid in full for there services. We are profesionals.

Most improvements pay for themselves in reduced fuel costs anyway.

JR

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Dave_4

Very nice and efficient........

Perry,

Hats off to you!!

Great heating system.

I am sure that cut your CO2 emisions in half.

Very Very nice!!

You are part of the solution!!

JR

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Ken_40

The proposal..

T&M or FR?

"Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."

jackchips_2

Ten

Our Fathers and ten Hail Mary's Ken, suspended for being very funny.

:-)

Jack (I am a Father)

John Ruhnke

402............

Ken,

I see you plan to shoot for 402.

JR

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Ken_40

Maybe later,

when it hits 500

bob_50

It seems to me

that first we all HAVE to AGREE on the best heating and cooling system:)

Mad Dog_2

C'mon Kevin.....What's the best part of a Hockey Game?

Ok, its just me......Anyway, I'm in!!!!!!! Let's do this. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Don't feel left out.......................................

No one wanted to listen to Churchill or Mac Arthur either. People get what they deserve - usually! Mad Dog

Kevin O. Pulver

I've only been to one hockey game Mad Dog

I guess I'd have to admit the rumble was the most exciting part! My wife is constantly amazed at how men can get into it and then quickly get over it. Women more often tend to be mad at each other for 20 years. Yes, despite what the feminists want us to believe, men and women ARE wired up differently (of course they can't yet deny that we're obviously plumbed differently). Are any of you guys GLAD that your wife isn't just like you? I know I am. Kevin

bob_50

Kevin

CD Jones in denver used to have one by the counter.On second thought it might have been Colorado Controls.

Perry_3

Gee...

And here I thought you were going to get me lots of stuff donated... Isn't that the concept of a "this old house" style upgrade.

If I've got to pay it all... just finding me a contractor doesn't help.

sniff, sniff...


Perry

[Deleted User]

cut-n-paste

http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html

ME

Gene_3

Icy Ball

goes way back, many people are starting to build their own out of old LWCO's and stuff, they really work, but a new state of the art Ammonia Ref is the way to go.

ever been in a hotel with a ServiBar? look behind it next time, it's an Ammonia Absorption Unit, they use like 1amp as opposed to a small beer fridge that sucks 5+Amps running the compressor

check your local Hotel Liquidators, they sometimes have them used in marble or whatever, they make great eff bar/beer fridges

check this

http://www.minibar.com/main.asp

John Ruhnke

Real neat...............

Mark,

You can track the history of an entire invention proccess there. Notice how no one rediscovers the wheel. Everyone learns what they can. Then they take what they know and improve upon it.

Faraday started things off by discovering the proccess in 1823. I am sure you could go back even further. Some one had to discover amonia. This is typical of scientists. They are the pioneers. Unfortunatly for Faraday, he wasn't able to turn it into a commercial success. He most likely didn't think of cooling food with it. Some guy came a long in 1858 and did that. Then again in 1927 further improvements were made and a patent appears.

That is a cool link.

JR

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John R. Hall

Back to Steve's original post

Thanks for thinking of me as the reporter, Steve. But I gotta tell ya', I'm the most politically incorrect person you'd ever find. I'd rather interview Leslie Gore ("It's My Party and I'll Cry If I Want To") than Al Gore.

Gene_3

So much is lost

I think the Mayan, Egyption, and Roman empires all had inventions that are lost forever.

It was Boyle, Charles and Dalton that have really affected our industry

a funny side note to JACQUES CHARLES, a French scientist, 1746-1823, he worked with gases and his Law of Gases is used in the refrigeration cycle.

Charles created the first balloon filled with hydrogen in 1783, and ascended to a height of around 2 miles.
While testing one of his balloons, he flew off course and landed in a field near the village of Gonesse. The local peasants believed that the balloon (with Charles inside) was a monster. They were frightened into attack by the "beast's" sighs, groans, and horrible smell. The peasants nearly killed him in the confusion.

Kevin O. Pulver

Does that mean John R. Hall,

That you'll chip in for the deep freeze?
We can use ammonia refrigerant it so Mother Earth will stay cool also, and the other John R. will cry tears of joy.
(said with a smile John ;-) Kevin