Elkhart Xpress fittings

Tim Doran_4

Anyone tried these fittings out yet? Any feedback? I am interested in going with the pro press system but am having issues with stocking distributors and support. Elkhart is available at my closest wholesaler.

Tim D.

hr

I have been using that brand

without any problems. Some of their reducing tees are kind of funky looking soldered up, homemade looking

hot rod

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Robert O'Brien

I

probably use more than Viega brand due to supplier availability,price to me is the same.Zero problems

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Tim Doran_4

Thanks!!!

Thanks for the reply guys, I'll have to give them a shot.

Tim D.

Ken_40

Based on the 250+ thread re: PP,

Mr. O'Brien is in a very small minority of opinion Tim.

Upon re-examination, even the most ardent supporters found trace leaks when asked to look at "older work," and look VERY carefully.

I suspect a product upgrade is in the making that will fix the weeping potential. You might want to ask the manufacturer about it before moving forward?

Robert O'Brien

Ken

He asked about Elkhart brand press fittings,not Viega.Is it Viega in particular or press fittings in general that are the object of your Jihad?
Also why single me out? Hot Rod voiced the same opinion.Just curious

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Ken_40

Read his post again Bob

This is what he wrote in the first post:
"I am interested in going with the pro press system but am having issues with stocking distributors and support."

I hardly singled you out, just the overwhelming evidence of unresolved problems with press fittings, that you seem so bent on suggesting as "flawless" in your unique experience.

If memory serves, you also stated you were primarily an installer, not an after the fact "examiner."

It's no jihad Bob, just an effort to prevent even more problems for us, the contractors who usually share our concerns with fellow tradesman.

Helping each other out Bob.

Does that cover your: "Just curious" inquiry? Or was there something else on your mind?

[Deleted User]

FWIW...

I have gone back and looked REAL closely at the glycoled jobs I've done and have had ZERO issues with Viega ProPres fittings. I have also read the letter from Elkhart Products on their press fittings and have used them. I'd prefer to use only Viega fittings, but have to use what I can get my hands on in a Just In Time business nature.

Ken, have you ever used any ProPress fittings?

ME

Robert O'Brien

Ken

Isn't everyone's experience unique to them? Tim asked about Elkhart fittings,not Viega.He asked for opinions and I gave him mine.I have no agenda,I'm a small contractor and others have installed many times more than I have but again in my experience I have had no problems with Elkhart fittings.
The question as to singling me out was rhetorical,I already knew why.

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Ken_40

Mark,

About 10-years ago, one of our largest accounts, a multi-sited, local, federally funded housing authority, was trying to reduce costs and determined that the PP "system" would allow their minimal soldering talents to be dismised, not have to call in for any copper pipework and invested in tools and fittings. Two of their staffers went to a formal "how to" training session.

After a few months we were asked to rip out all the fittings and pipe and re-do it all with 'M' and 'L' copper. The reason? Weeping joints. I offered to try the machine and a few fittings on my own and see if they were simply NOT following the rather simple instructions. The tool was returned and a full credit for it, and all the fittings received, no questions asked.

The vendor/supply house said roughly half the tools were returned and the incident of leakers alarming. I saw the complete lack of reducing fittings and developed length of diameter transitions as impracticle and said to myself: "When they get the leaks/bugs out; begin making reducing fittings; and per unit fitting costs are commenserate with time savings - w'ell take another look."

None of those needs were ever met IMO.

I am willing to try new technology. I am also painfully aware of lawyers and potential lawsuits. System leaks are the legendery things liability lawyers thrive on.

A few leaks is a few too many!

[Deleted User]

So...

I take your answer to my question about having any actual formal field experience with the ProPress tools is, no...

How many soldered joints would you say you've had leak? I KNOW you have experience with THAT method.

Will you be comparing the leak rates of soldered versus non soldered joints in your white paper? Including the long term leaking solder joints that everyone has encountered in the field?


Did the aforementioned housing authority actually use a ProPress machine, or something similar?

As for lawyers and leaks, you have just as much liability doing soldered joints as you do using mechancial fittings, except that the sweat fitting manufacturers are probably not going to defend your soldering talents. I know because I caused $30K worth of damage because the oxides trapped right where the maker put their indelible mark, and when asked to join in defending the damage claim, was denied due to lack of field quality control. BTW, the joint held for 2 years...

Inquiring minds...

ME

Ken_40

That's a great question;

How many soldered joints have I seen leak?

Very, very few. A loy less than were reported with PP fittings in the 250+ post-thread. And, they never leaked a few months or years later. Hydro-static testing revealed them immediately. If there was one in a thousand that mighta have leaked after a month, they were easy to fix, easy to see and no exotic expensive tools or materials required to make a repair.

You seem to be suggesting press fittings are better for legal reasons? If I solder a joint and it leaks and causes damage - I alone am responsible. If a press fitting is used, we can always blame the material vendor or the tool maker and share the blame?

Interesting twist indeed.

Given the number of years I soldered copper joints Mark, I can honestly say the leakers may have been under 100. Almost all from repairs to copper with water still in the pipe. Damage to property? Nada. Total number of joints soldered in the 45-years I personally soldered copper pipe? Well over 10,000 is a good guess.

Let me know when you personally have fitted and pressed 10,000 PP fitings and let's see what your numbers look like. Until that time, there is nothing to really to compare.

And yes. The aforementioned housing authority used the Rigid Viega tool and fittings. Hell, back then they were the ONLy makers of either - I think.

And no. The White paper is merely a heads up that many defective joints have occurred, that the tool and fittings are hardly perfect, and for the purpose intended, questionable as to integrity.

A "White Paper" is not condemnation of a procduct. It is a study to report problems that have been well documented. It is my suspiscion that ALL press fittings and ALL crimp tools are problematic. But evidence, not opinion, is required. I need photographs, of which I already have many. Individual reports of people who use and are trained, etc. - of which we have many. And formal responses of manufacturers, of which I have little, but enough original paperwork to do a through job. More inquirries to manufacturers will be mailed out, registered mail. Most will likely not reply. That will also be noted.

You know the drill; you've also been a witness in a few cases I'm sure.

Hope that answers most of those burning questions. If you think of any more, feel free...

Glenn Sossin_2

ProPress

The only leak I ever had with propress is when I forgot to crimp it. It leaked for a bit, got the tool and crimped it - problem solved. We currently sell both Ridgid/Viega and Elkhart fittings - no issues with either one.

We have sold 24 tools in the last 2 years. If there is a problem, its with the gun. I have had several units returned for various reasons. Happy to say, all covered by Ridgid under warranty. We have 2 loaners/demo models so that if a customer has to turn his gun in, we give him a loaner so his down time is minimal. These things are not built like other ridgid tools. - but they stood behind them every time.

Like other tools,fittings - if you don't use it properly, you can/will have problems. I think its a great product. Next time your on an ocean liner, look around - you'll probably see press fittings. It is my understanding that they are widley used on ocean liners.