Soft or hard?

Scram Bulleggs

I install my share of water treatment systems also. I think one of the biggest reasons you are seeing anodes fail is low PH. I look at many installs done by others and they treat everything with a softener. Have installed many neutralisers on houses that used to go through water heaters like crazy. Now we have them lasting well beyond any warrantees.

If it is dissolved iron I agree with ion exchange. The air systems are always bringing callbacks. You do not soften water on outdoor spigots because it is a waste. I think what you may be thinking of is backwash water killing vegitation (which it does)

Water tested and treated properly is a great thing where needed.

Dave_4

water softener

Hi all-
We'll be getting a water softener SOON (the whole town sits on a bed of limestone!) and run one pipe steam. I've seen contrary opinions on this subject on the Wall, but no direct answer. Is it OK to use softened water with our boiler, or is is best to use untreated? Is there a point where "too soft" is as bad as "too hard?" I don't have any test figures yet, but the water scales up appliances pretty quickly. Can't imagine that this is good for the boiler, even with minimal makeup water, but this might be better than an overactive softener.
While I'm asking, any opinions on water softeners?
Thanks,
Patrick

Mark Hunt

I know that


Burnham says NOT to use softened water on their boilers.

By-pass the softener for your boiler feed.

Mark H

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Unknown

water softener...

Mark H, did ya mean that burham don't want soften water in their steam boiler only or for all boilers? I was told that boliers are better off with soften water as we know that water heaters will last longer on soften water..

Mark Hunt

Specifically


steam boilers.

Mark H

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Steamhead (in transit)

I think

this is because softeners exchange sodium ions for the ions that make the water hard. This can cause premature boiler failure from corrosion.

Pat, your boilers have lasted over 40 years on that water supply. I wouldn't mess with success.

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[Deleted User]

Really???

Here in Denver, with water at 7-1/2 grains of hardeness, water heaters fail faster due to the anode going south due to softeners.

Softners, IMHO are nothing but trouble. Did you ever wonder why it is that they bypass irrigation systems with softened water? It's because it will kill any living things. Including humans.

ME

Al_19

C'mon Mark, that's a pretty broad statement.

In my area, we're installing softeners on 15-30 gpg water. This water is capable of coating and burning out electric water heater elements in no time. I've seen homeowners with spares hanging on the wall next to the heater. Tankless coils plug in as little as 6 months given the hardness and certain other conditions. I know you're a fan of magnets, but I've pulled them off jobs where they were installed by homeowners, but the coil plugged again anyway, and we end up installing a softener.

The irrigation systems are usually hooked up before the softener simply because it would be a waste to treat that water. The hardness is not going to bother the lawn. However, I have treatment systems where we treat the irrigatgion water because of high iron in the water, which stains they're walls, walks, patios, etc. So we treat that water also.

There's a place and an application for everything. But softeners kill everything including people?? I think this is a stretch.

[Deleted User]

No stretch Al...

According to the AMA, people who have a propensity toward high blood pressure should NOT shower or bath in artificialy softened water.

My father watched most of his customers who were on softeners die at a realtively early age (60's) of arterial/heart diseases.

I had a customer whos brainiac son wanted to do an experiment for his junior highschool science project. He had hard untreated water, softened water and magnetically treated water. He grew sprouts in the waters and documented their growth.

The hardened ones did OK and the magnetic ones grew at twice the rate of the untreated water.

The sodium softened ones died shortly after sprouting.

He won first prize in the state competition for his grade category.

If the salt salesmen make thier money on salt sales, why wouldn't they WANT to connect to the irrigation systems?

I also prequalified my water heater statement with our local hardness factors to narrow the scope of the statement.

I don't make this stuff up. I tells em like I reads em.

THey may have their applications, but it isn't here in Denver.

ME

Gordy

Mark

What in tarnashion. My wife, and daughters know the minute I run out of salt (water boss). We run 28 grains in my area. Please elaborate on the magnets you have had success with.....I thought they were snake url. Iknew soft water kills the lawn. Never thought it affected the human body in such a way. Tired of packin bags of salt.


Gordy

Dave_4

Yeah-

Pretty much what I expected, but didn't want to miss the opportunity to improve the situation.
Thanks, all,
Patrick

realolman

If you have iron

in your water, get an air injection iron remover. It will eliminate the iron so the softener doesn't have to. Mine also has an air vent that is supposed to remove any stink.


Then run your water into the softener. It will make everything you do with water in your house work better.

Finally, definately, absolutely, run your drinking water through a reverse osmosis filter. Keep a jug of that stuff in yer frig and you will soon forget about soda, iced tea, and all that other stuff. ( well maybe not beer... let's not go crazy here )

I believe that softened water has some sodium in it. The reverse osmosis filter will remove everything from the water and make it taste great. I got a 5 stage from Eden Engineering on the web. At that time it was 169 bucks... Wonderful thing.

I think it would be wasteful to treat the water with which you water your lawn, regardless of whether or not it was good for the grass.

I would say don't waste your money on an expensive water softener. I have had well known brand names that cost a lot, I would not buy another one. I think you could probably get one for about 500 bucks. Some of them are insulated to keep them from sweating, though. I think that might be a good thing.

Al_19

The air systems are nice. There are a couple of variations of them. The kind with the veturi type air injector(installed in the line coming in from the well) can be problematic because the venturi part of it can decrease the flow rate in half. If flow rate isn't an issue, they work well. Otherwise there is the air pump type which pumps air into the vent/mixing tank that you mentioned.

Other systems include Greensand media regenerated with potassium permanganate, which is real nasty, messy stuff. Or clorination.

But I never rely on these systems to reduce the iron to a point where the staining is gone. I would always follow it up with a softener to remove the last bit of iron.

I agree with you that treating lawn water is a waste, if the treatment is a softener for calcium. However, with enough iron in the water to stain their foundation, walls, walks, etc., some homeowners elect to treat the lawn water. How we do this depends on the situation. Sometimes a sequestering chemical is fed to the sprinkler water. On a job where I have a clorination system to treat iron, I had the sprinkler guy take his supply off after clorination/filtration/de-clorination, but before the softener. That water was clean enough for outside. A lot of variables and trade-offs, just like when you guys lay out heating systems.

As far as boilers are concerned, if it were mine, steam or hot water, I don't think I'd sweat too much over whether the water was treated or not. I would definately follow the manufacturers suggestions. But I don't think the water that ultimately ends up in the boiler really matters. If the system is tight as it should be, then there should be very little makeup water. So the water in the boiler should end up with the minerals settled out of it. By the way, a softener exchanges sodium or potassium for calcium, but doesn't reduce the overall mineral content. If antifreeze was being added, then I would definately be concerned with the pH of the raw water it was being mixed with. That water could be neutralized, or I suppose water could be brought in from offsite. If substantial makeup water was being added to a steam or hot water system, the place I would expect problems would be at the automatic feeder or pressure reducing valve. Right where hard cold water is being fed into hotter water is where the most calcium will settle out. I don't know if the manufacturers are considering that when they make the "no softened water" recommendations.

As far as water heaters lasting longer on softened water, I agree with you that they do, in areas with substantiaal hardness. The softener may wreak havoc with the anode rod, but the issue with high haardness is scaling the bottom of the tank until it sounds like a popcorn machine, and then giving up the ghost, which I don't view as a corrosion problem that the anode would protect against. It's a race between the calcium scale causing the bottom of the tank to cook, versus some other part of the tank corroding because the anode rod is shot. In areas with minimal hardness, I would be more concerned about keeping the anode functional.

But hey, If the kid in Denver growing sprouts proved that water softeners kill everything including people, then I don't know why we're even having this conversation. And since I'm only a salt salesman, you shouldn't even bother considering my ideas about efficient or environmentally friendly water treatment alternatives.

Al

[Deleted User]

Gordy...

http://www.superiorwaterconditioners.com/

ME

[Deleted User]

Obviously...

you sell more than salt:-)

Didn't mean to offend and shouldn't paint with broad brush strokes, but I have dealt with the salt salesmen before on commercial hotel accounts, and he lost... ZERO grains of hardenss will assist in the early destruction of copper piping, no?? In that particular case, DHW circ return, ate the mains and returns with hydraulic errosion corrosion, which was enhanced by the extremely soft water. That was based on a report filed by the COpper Development Association.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in water treatement where appropriate.

ME

Gordon_3

H20 softener

Going against the advice of a local water treatment professional, I know two people with wells and fairly hard water who tried magnet type systems (two diff brands). Both systems were a joke. Maybe they work on some types of hard water, but did nothing in these cases. I was also told the "snake oil" story in regards to magnets. Injesting or drinking too much sodium can cause high blood pressure which could lead to heart disease. This is why most dealers selling softeners recommend adding an R/O unit for the drinking water and ice maker. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure there is zero absorbtion of sodium while bathing in soften water unless you shower with your head up and your mouth open. If one can absorb the salt though the skin I guess all my surfer friends should start counting their days.

Gordy

Mark and Steamhead

Thanks for the information. Well the drinking water, and outside water does not get softened in my house. But I kinda think Mark was refering to absorbtion.

I was looking at if the magnets did work, it would be a wonderful option to ditch the salt packin. More research,
surfs up on the web...... time to saturate the cranium.

Thanks Gordy

[Deleted User]

A word of caution...

Your girls are used to the silky (slimy?) feeling of the softened water. Possibly addicted (hair, shampoo, conditioners, etc) so expect some resistance to change.

Mechanically speaking, as long as you are not dealing with silica calcification, the magents work great to protect heated and cooled equipment, and WILL make a difference in the removal of hard water scale.

ME

Dave_4

Wow-

I think it should be clear now why I asked in the first place- lots of variables and lots of differing opinions to consider!
HOWEVER- We had a Kinetico (nice system) guy come in last night to give us the dog and pony and check out our setup. At the conclusion, we trotted down to the basement to see about placement, and he immediately clams up. This ol' house is positively littered with galvanized piping- likely the real culprit behind our low flow issues (not just scale buildup) and softened water would just accelerate the decay. The guy recommended we have as much as possible removed- didn't even want to mention a contractor because he didn't want to give the impression of capitalizing on the problem.
Pex repipe, here we come. Guess those boilers will have to last another year...
Now that the subject has changed, anything to look (out) for with pex or a pex installer?

Thanks all,
Patrick

A Wholesaler

It's not the sodium

Sodium Chloride (softener salt) is what is used to recharge the beds of most softeners. The chloride side of the properties just rides along as a byproduct of the chemical chain and composition. It is actually only the sodium which is used to recharge the resin bed that make the water channeling through it soft by attracting the hardness to stick to the resin (+ & - ions). The final cycles of the softener is called rinse which is supposed to flush and remove the majority of the excess salts and unused chlorides left behind during the regeneration process.

Yes the softener will raise the sodium level on the out put of the unit however, proper salt regeneration use along with adequate rinsing leaves minimal elevated sodium levels in the downstream potable water side.

I agree and adhere to reducing any unneeded sodium intake myself with a family history of heart trouble but, I'd be surprised if anyone could come up with proof that salt can be introduced to the bloodstream via diffusion or osmosis while bathing.

Finally, should salt intake or salt byproducts be a concern from using a softener, there is a alternative to using standard softener salt and it is called Potassium Chloride. At 3X the cost of solar salt sold at Home Depot, the concern of ingesting additional salt in your diet is negated.

Brian

Gordon_3

Soft water & corrosion

Have to be careful what we read. Many of these aternative to ion-exchange softener companies will say anything to sell their products. This does not make it fact. There has been studies on this issue by the EPA and others:

Rumors grew into accepted "opinion" in the 1980s when so-called corrosive softened water was noted as a lead-leaching risk in the EPA and AWWA publications. The trade association had hoped these misconceptions were laid to rest with the completion of the Softened Water Corrosion study by the EPA and the WQA. The study concluded that there is no significant difference between softened water and its source water. In fact, there were indications in the report that in some cases softened water may be less corrosive.

Here is this entire article if you want to read it:
http://waternet.com/article.asp?IndexID=6631959

Al_19

You might be mixing up the medias. Softening resin (cation resin) uses positively charged sodium or potassium ions to exchange for calcium and magnesium(hardness) ions. With this resin, the chlodide side of the salt is not used.

If you used an anion resin (say for removing tannens or organic type iron), and regenerated with sodium chloride, then the resin would regenerate with the chloride(negatively charged) side of the salt, and the sodium wouldn't be used.

Often, on jobs with high amounts of iron, the iron is present in several forms, and it may take several processes to remove it down to a point where the staining is negligable. Or the water may have a urine of tea color from tannens. One of the methods that we try on these jobs is to use a softener with both types of resin(cation & anion). When this setup regenerates, it uses both the sodium(or potassium) and the chloride sides of the salt.

Be careful! The potassium chloride is advertised that it "doesn't add sodium to the water", which is true. But it does add potassium. For people on certain heart medications, potassium can mess up the levels of medication in their system.

I have a customer where the husband's doctor told him to restrict his sodium intake, and to use potassium table salt if he had to have salt. So he wanted the softener regenerated with potassium chloride. But the wife's doctor said she couldn't have the increased potassium level. So they got a softener, and a kitchen faucet and ice cube maker with untreated water. They just have to deal with the water problems at those fixtures. We could have given them an R.O. system, but they chose to do without that. Everything's a tradeoff.

The amounts of either salt in the treated water are dependent on the amount of "stuff" that is being exchanged out of the water by the softener, not by the softener adjustments. You can't adjust for "less soft" water. If you adjust the softener so it's capable of treating the water conditions, then it treats All of those conditions.

My position is to always make my customers aware of the salt issue, but let them make the final decisions with they're doctor. For most people the sodium is just one of the many things they consider when looking at they're own diets, and they use the treated water accordingly.

realolman

In my opinion

which is of course always right... the reverse osmosis is something that you would really like if you would try it.

The filters are economical and seldom have to be replaced.
And they're a piece of cake to replace.

After having had one for maybe 8 years, it's a no brainer, I'll never be without one again.

Mine was supposed to go under the cabinet. I don't think I'd like that though. I put it in the basement.

Gordy

Not impressed

I had one around 15 years ago. Unless they have changed
They waste water in the filtering process..can't remember exact amount but it was considerable. Forever, and a day to fill a coffee pot in the morning.

Back then filters were pricey, and needed changed every 90 days no matter how much the usage. Plus the fact it was room temp water comming out of the spigot.

I know, I know stick a pitcher in the fridge. It is still forever, and a day to fill.

Maybe they have changed, but I never got another one, and don't miss it.


Gordy

Gordy

Slimmy Hair

Yup Mark you got it. I have my own shower now. Had to stand side ways do to limited space in shower from hair products. They got tired of dear ole Dad/Hubby wondering why 3 girls need 3 different shampoos, and conditioners.

I got chewed out because I would run out of the cheap stuff,and use thier 10 dollar a bottle stuff.

Convincing will be a chore.

Thanks for that tad of info though. I would be tared, and feathered after pounding the table for a magnet softner, only to have thier hair feel unnatural.

Gordy

Al_19

15 years ago, they often ran water to drain continuously. In fact, the closer they got to the operating pressure of the little storage tank, the more water then went to drain. Now they have pressure sensors that shut off the incoming water when they reach the operating pressure of the storage tank. If no one draws water from the faucet, then no more water is being processed by the membrane, or being flushed to drain. The storage tanks are set at 5-7#. The process works by the pressure difference across the R.O. membrane, say 40-60# in the plumbing system, down to 5-7# in the storage tank. This is for the typical undersink units. I usually install them in the basement like realolman said. But you really have to be close to the kitchen, and I usually stand the tank on a shelf high on the basement wall, again because of the low operating pressure. They do make little booster pumps for them.

On whole house r.o., or commercial systems, they might process water across multiple membranes to an atmospheric storage tank(the greater the pressure diff across the membrane the more efficient it is). Then use a booster pump/tank to repressurize.

On the undersink units now, they recommend replacing the pre- and post- filters maybe every 6 months. These filters are inexpensive. They expect the membranes to last several years now.

Also, the membranes 15 years ago were rated say 5 or 10 gpd. Now they're 25-50 gpd. But we're still limited to the low pressure. And if you fill something large, and empty the storage tank, well good luck waiting on more water. I've put sytems in with 2 or 3 storage tanks so its harder to run out of water.

Gordy

Al

Glad to hear much needed improvements were made. Like I said I have not paid much attention to them are they still as pricey?

Gordy

Steamhead (in transit)

Why not

use copper? Has that been a problem in your area? Even though it's more expensive, I still prefer copper to PEX.

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Al_19

Hi Gordy,

Patrick North

Copper

We'll get estimates for both, but I'm guessing that copper will be substantially more expensive and be more invasive than PEX. Haven't seen anything not to like with PEX, aside from reminders that any install- with any material- can be screwed up. A home run setup would also lend itself to some creative plumbing- like sending cold lav/kitchen lines through a RO filter. But I'm open- we'll see what develops.
Patrick