Firing a boiler without electricity?

Somethiing Else

I am not sure about other regions, but in the province of Quebec, Milivolts systems are legal and installed there. If you want a boiler I know that Viessmann has a milivolt boiler sold in Quebec. As an option you may want to check out the rep there.

Motivated Amateur

Firing a boiler without electricity?

A question for the pros...
I replaced my original 1931 Burnham one pipe steam boiler with a new Dunkirk last year, which of course required an electric power lineto be run to it - the old one needed no electricty to run (it also had no LWCO, no water feeder, and no Hartford loop!) My question - is there any way to start the new boiler in the event of a power outage (which we have right now). It is a continuous pilot light model, and it's got an electric damper. Thnaks for any advice on this bypass idea.

jim s_2

Nope



Your old boiler must have been a millivolt system,same as what `s in my basement.

Dale

ups

If you aren't the standby generator and transfer switch kind of guy,( For what you have the smallest little 120V out put Honda would work), you can buy a UPS uninteruptible power supply, that will have enough battery to keep you going for as many days as you choose to pay for. If you are usually home I would go with the transfer switch and little generator.

Brad White_9

Generator and UPS aside

my concern would be the vent damper. Yes, if you have a standing pilot you have the means to have a millivolt or powerpile system (thermocouple in the pilot flame).

It may be millivolt already but relies on a relay to bring in 24 or 120V for the vent damper.

You have to assure that the vent damper fails open in a power outage. Normally they do, but check it.

If you do have a millivolt system and the damper fails open, you should have heat in a power outage. One good thing about that bit of parasitic loss. Works for steam and gravity hot water. It can work for forced hot water if connected to an older gravity system or where pipe sizes are generous, but you have to manually open your flow check valves to allow gravity flow. It can be tepid especially if the pipes are smaller, but better than nothing.

Rodney Summers

How do I make it a millivolt or powerpile system? (I/m not totally sure what they are) On the other hand, a small generator is certainly a good option with a transfer switch (guessing that is to switch from the house power to the generator?
Last - to use a UPS, which is like those used on a computer system - how do I hook the boiler into it? the boiler doesnt just plug in. Thanks for the guidance

Brad White_22

Milli Vanilli Volts

You may already have a millivolt system, Rich. Look at the gas valve and/or controller block and see what the nameplate says.

Also, in the pilot flame would be a thermocouple, a twisted set of dis-similar metal wires that when immersed in a flame, generates a micro-current measured in thousandths of a volt. Usually this is between 400 and 800 mV, but less than one volt.

I am not sure how a UPS would be utilized. The are primarily used to power down computers and to preserve volatile memory in programmed circuitry. Large ones can run motors and lights but they are huge for any length of time.

A generator is still a good idea. You would have lights and cold ice cream, and what is life worth without being able to see your Ben and Jerry's?

Motivated Amateur

Milli Vanilli?

Milli Vanilli volts- does tha tmean that this is all a sham?!?!

Thanks, Brad, for the info - I'll check out the boiler - I'm pretty sure it's got a thermocouple- I had to re-light the pilot recently. If that is the case, how do I get the boiler to fire up tonight?

Dave DeFord_3

The UPS....

Would be utilized in place of the 120V power currently being used to power a transformer that is converting it to 12V DC. You would need to find out where the 24V transformer is picking up its 120V AC and tap into it there. The UPS is simply 1-3 wet/gel cell batteries that store energy at 12DC volts that then convert it back to 120V when the input power is lost (see www.apc.com). The UPS is at best about 80% efficient and fairly pricey. What I would do instead is to use 2 car batteries in series to generate the 24 volts needed. These could then be recharged from a car if they don't get run down so far they won't start the car and then you wouldn't need a generator. Personally I would look for a generator that is large enough to run my heating system, my refrigerator and a couple of lights. This would only be about 20-25 amps (2000 TO 2500 watts) and wouldn't cost too much. If you can try and find one that runs on propane or natural gas as they don't develop the fuel system problems that gasoline powered ones do when they sit for a long time. For the time being I might look for a couple of charged 12V batteries to hook in series to get the heat back on. Make sure you know what you're doing so you don't hurt yourself.

Bob W._3

Dave, I thought about two 12 volt batteries in series, but that would give you DC voltage unless it went through an invertor. Why not run the 12 volt deep cycle batteries in parallel, run them through an invertor and tap into the 120v (line) side of the transformer?

FWIW I have one of those 12v battery combo car starter, compressor and 400 watt 120v invertor units and I plan on using the 120v to power my boiler if necessary. Shouldn't be too much load for the gas valve, LWCO, vaporstat and vent damper.

Ron Schroeder

Most heating controls will fry if powered directly from 24 volts DC if they were designed for AC.

There are some gas valves designed for 12 volts DC used in recreational vehicles.

I also once saw a gas valve in an RV that was rated for 24V AC or 12V DC. I think it was made by White.

Dave DeFord_2

My bad...

I had never really investigated the 24V side of my system. I guess I just assumed it was 24V DC. Thanks for setting me straight and I apologize for posting bad information.

Unknown

Concerning changing

a design piece of equipment to Powerpile. This is a violation of ANSI standard Z21.8 which mandates a dual seated gas valve on all heating. The powerpile valves are all single seated valves.

I also do not recommend homeowners or anyone else who is not qualifed to do this kind of thing.

There is absolutely too much freedom taken by many of you on the site here when it comes to recommending things to customers which create a liability.

You all need to have some serious discussion with your lawyers about how far you can go.

Unknown

Ron, most gas valves

will work with AC or Dc voltage. Usually 24 volts AC or 12 volts DC. In fact many gas valves now have a built in diode and convert the 24 volts to DC votlage before it gets to the valve coil.

Ron Schroeder

Hi Tim,

While it is true that most AC coils will work on either AC or DC, The safe DC voltage won't usually be the same as the safe AC voltage due to the inductive reactance limiting current on AC but not DC (at least in coils without a diode).

My point about the valve that I mentioned that would run on either 24VAC and 12VDC was that it was specifically UL listed for both conditions.

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH

Motivated Amateur

No liability

Tim,
The guys posting info here are not incurring any liability - they are not hired as contractors, so there is no formal relationship formed. They can talk to their lawyers if they want, but I see no issue - and I hate to have to admit it, but I am lawyer - and just as if I were to give legal advice, I am not forming a lawyer-client relationship- it's just talking. I appreciate the candid dialogues that go on here, and I would hate for that to be cxhilled in any way.

Neil_5

Generators Not Clean

Most generators or UPS or inverters are modified sine waves and I am sure this is not good for the circ, valves and electronics.

You would need a pure wave generator or inverter.

Neil

Unknown

I beg to differ with you

Richard but if I were you I would check very carefully the liability incurred when the design of a piece of gas equipment is changed. By removing a dual seated gas valve and relacing it with a single seated valve you are changing the safety of the equipment. I do not make this statement as ideal talk but with the counsel of several lawyers who handle these kinds of cases. I also appear as an expert witness for many of these cases. I have found that unless there is a long standing practice approved by the equipment manufacturer to convert equipment to a lesser standard there is a very definite liability incurred, Sometimes the candid dialogue here goes to far and people who do not know what they are doing get hurt.

My over 40 years experience in the gas industry and also as an educator I stand on my advice. My former company a gas utility did at one time convert equipment to Powerpile systems back when all gas controls were single seated. This is no longer an allowed practice.

I would suggest you contact a few equipment manufacturers to get their opinion on this practice. You will find they do not approve of it.

The reason Powerpile valves are still made is so there will be parts availble for the existing systems in the field. They are not being produced by Honeywell, Robertshaw of White Rodgers as replacment retrofits for equipment.

There are legitimate retrofits for equipment which also have as a part of their instructions and Exhibit A and Exhibit B attachement for legal protection of the installer. I was involved in the implemetation of this back in the 1970's through the American Gas Association and GAMA.

I also carry a very expensive Errors and Omissions insurance to protect against advice given and not carried out correctly.

It is one thing to advise about pump curves, radiant tubing etc but when you are talking about the fire we put into the equipment you had better know what you are doing.

Unknown

Most of those DC votages I am referring to

came from Honeywell or Robertshaw modules which powered regular 24 volt gas valves.

It is also the case today that most of the ice cube relays used on multi zone panels are all DC voltage along with a lot of motors being used on equipment. Most of those the voltage is regulated from the control system used with the equipment and is well within the rating of the coils.

Motivated Amateur

then a solution...

I would hope that most people coming onto the site do so for information, and they knoew the risks of attmpting plumbing or electrical work that is over their head. I use the information so that I am well-informed in making a decision when hiring a contractor. But, as the old adage goes, the 'masses are asses'....therefore, given your well-explained and valid concerns, balanced with the legitimate goal of a free flow of conversation information and ideas (which is why the Wall exists), perhaps a disclaimer should be affixed to either the Wall itself, or to each post (as they may be e-mailed to individuals. Lawyers do it constantly, WebMD has a disclaimer prominently displayed as well, I believe.

Jim Dawson

UPS is the safest solution

Once you calculate the load requirements of the damper, circulator,etc. probably no more than 300watts.A UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply) is the safest solution.All you have to do is change your 120V supply line to the Boiler with a grounded AC Cord.Plug that into the UPS (rated for your amperage)which is plugged into your boiler supply line which is converted into a 120V recptacle.Thats it.Your only concern would be the life of the 12volt power source that goes through the DC converter.The only modification you would make is to extend the life of the built in UPS battery by hooking up in paralell additional 12v batteries ie your car battery.This is a safe and cheap way to have un interupted power to any appliance providing you do your math and match your consumption wattage with that of your
UPS