Munchkin Vibrating Noise

Robert O'Connor_11

It's Christmas!! No need for acrimony!

Re-Read the post. What would you do if it had been your house?

Oh yeah: FW WEBB "Wholesale or no sale" not....

Mr. Homeowner is mechanically inclined but not self reliant.

"You don't get what you don't pay for"

A Good contractor would have this on his truck. Did you hire a Pro?

Personally, I keep 5 cord of wood ready to go! and I have 30K worth of inventory(heating)-oil or gas in my shop)

I have all the numbers too!

All the best.

Robert

ME

David Toppin_2

Munchkin Vibrating Noise

Good Morning Wall,

My Munchkin, installed maybe 18 months ago, started making a vibrating noise this morning. It's coming from inside the unit not from one of the external pumps or anything. Anyone have any idea what it could be before I take it apart?

Thanks

Dave

[Deleted User]

First question...

are you qualified to take it apart?

ME

David Toppin_2

It's the fan

It's the black fan inside the unit making the noise. AM I qualified? I'm not certified, but I am very mechanically inclined and understand gas. I've talked to tech support and I think I'm all set here. Thanks!

[Deleted User]

OK...

Just be careful. You're dealing with gas, electricty and water, all three which can kill or maim in ways you never though possible.

ME

David Toppin_2

Thanks

OK, I realize that. I've wired & plumbed lots of stuff in my life. This is a fairly easy & straightforward repair, but I can't get parts today!

JB_7

David: What happened to the fan? Why was it making noise?

Was it just the fan blade coming loose or was the fan bearings failing? Do you have to replace the whole fan assembly? Thanks for any info

P.S I too have an 80M and am very capable

Jim

John Rogers

Boiler Parts

18 months sounds about right for the parts to start breaking down, good idea to have some spare parts for that boiler, if you can't get any from your supplier quickly you may need to contact the dealer. I would suggest getting an ignitor,control board and fan motor assembly, and check that you have an up to date dungs gas valve. Good luck.Merry Christmas

JohnWood1

EGR.................

Exhaust gas recirc will cause it to sound like a V-1 buzz bomb. If you have a concentric vent the center pipe may have come loose. This is also a health hazard.............

David Toppin_2

Munchkin Fan

Well, after diagnosis this morning, and talking to tech support, who didn't give me any indication that the thing was about to grenade, I figured I'd just fix the fan noise at the beginning of the week when FW Webb opened back up. At about 9 PM tonite, (Christmas Eve) my wife said to me, "we have no hot water, you'd better check the boiler" So I went downstairs and there it was, the F13 fault. Fan not working at all. The plastic shield inside the blower grenaded and is now in three pieces. I'm going to be stuck with a cold house this weekend, possibly til Tuesday, and I'm not happy with heat transfer products. I hope if you are considering a Munchkin you don't buy one. DO a google search on "Munchkin F13" and see all the people that have had this problem. My model is 199M I believe. Here's a link:
http://radnet.groupee.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1041029701/m/6521092801/p/1

Buy a Buderus if you have the room to get it in, I had one in my last house and it was awesome. Quiet, never needed anything and many people could fix it.

[Deleted User]

Bitter Apples...

As the commercial on radio says, "SCHMIDT HAPPENS!"

Sorry you got caught on a long weekend. I've had people with Buderus, Viessmann, Burnham, Weil McLain, Teledyne Laars, virtually every boiler brand I've ever installed has had at least one failure during a major long weekend. It's not only the product, but the people behind the sale that make a system click!

Not sure I could do you any good on a weekend like this, but if I could, I would.

Sorry about your experience. Life goes on without hot water for a while. It's the loss of food and water that will kill you...

Merry Christmas and may you have a better new year.

ME

[Deleted User]

PS...

They didn't make the fan. They are giving a three year warrranty on it. None of my other manufacturers are doing that.

ME

Robert O'Connor_11

psst

A good relationship with your wholesaler will get you past closed doors on the weekends.

All the best

Robert

ME

[Deleted User]

I've got numbers in my PDA...

that would make Miss Hiltons phone look like childs play...:-)

ME

David Toppin_2

munchkin failure

Maybe so, but they know there is a problem with them. No product like that should fail in a year or so. There are lots of people with the issue. The tech support guy I spoke to, Chuck, should have told me this morning that it was going to fail. He knew I called FW Webb, he knew they weren't open. I told him I'd just replace it after the weekend. My guess is he knew it wouldn't last that long and didn't tell me. I could have driven to E Freetown and picked it up. Now I go the weekend w/o heat & hot water and it didn't have to be this way. That's why I'm so irritated.

Thanks for your reply!

David Toppin_2

Send Them!

Mark if you have a number of someone at HT Products I'd certainly appreciate having it!
I have Chuck's number and I am going to call him in the morning.

brucewo1b

Mark I did have a bit of respect for you until this post Bitter Apples life goes on without hot water for a while, Well this time of year a long weekend witout heat equals frozen pipes I ashamed to be known a Heattech at this point and time.

Cosmo_3

I'm w/ Mark

I was empathetic towards Dave until the insults and accusations started. This problem could have happened w/ any equipment. I just think that accusing Chuck of knowing when exactly a fan motor would go bad is ridiculous, and telling everybody to by a different brand stinks of sour grapes. Yes it is unfortunate that he will have to wait until morning, or worse until Monday. I do not know whether this product was installed by a professional, if so where is he in all this? If anything like this happens to a system I install, like Mark said I have a lot of phone #s I can call in an emergency, and so do any good installers.

Please remember, you can catch more flies w/ honey than vinegar.......

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

David Toppin_2

Chuck

I don't see where I insulted anyone! If you are a tech for Munchkin, and you are familiar with the products, then you are going to know that a noisy fan mean iminent failure. It would have been nice if he had warned me. Any google search of the issue shows lots of people with the problem. He tried to tell me in the beginning it was gas pressure related. Blame it on the gas company! I bought a Munchkin because of the recommendation of various people on this board, and the fact that I couldn't get a cast iron boiler down the stairs. These things seem to have issues, and after googling them of course I am irritated. I'm not blaming anyone here, but to read stories of people replacing 3 or 4 blower motors I do question the judgement of putting them in. I had it installed by Chuck Laverty & Sons who have done them before, but they are not necessarily Munchkin guys. There were none around me at the time.

David Toppin_2

Not Self Reliant?!!?

Robert,

"Mr. Homeowner is mechanically inclined but not self reliant." I don't appreciate the snide comment.

I know what the problem is, I know how to fix it, I just can't get the part. I can also build computers & networks, fix cars, plumbing, electrical, roofing, siding, framing, drywall, finish carpentry, etc, so I am pretty damn self reliant. I can't cook though. I am smart enough to ask questions before I jump into any project. I don't think it's too smart to rely on my own thoughts when I can ask dozens of people who are smarter than me in this particular area, I do it before I fix anything, car, computer, appliance, etc. There's a ton of info out there in the internet age and I use it as best I can. I also answer questions for people who I feel I can help. What goes around comes around.

Robert O'Connor_11

\"So this is Christmas

and what have you done?"

Should have hired a Pro

"Penny wise pound foolish!!"

All the best

Robert

ME

PS :

My customers do not need to get on "The Wall" they just need to call me It is fixed!! 24/7/365- I am a Pro..

David Toppin_2

Penny wise

"take care of your pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves" - my great grandfather

If I had hired someone else would I not be having this problem right now? You would charge me list for the part and probably 2 or 300 to show up and put it in. It is waranteed and will take me maybe an hour to install. So it probably would be costing me 700 more to call you. Or an hour of my actual labor. I'll keep the 700, thank you. Do you have the part in stock? That would be the only benefit.

Robert O'Connor_11

Self reliance

was a value long before "Google"

All the best

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_11

Absolutely

I think you are getting the point. I do not sell anything that I cannot support 24/7/365

and... quit whining ! It's Christmas... the kids will hear you!!

All the best

Robert

ME

PS

My rates are fair and reasonable

Again, I am a professional

David Toppin_2

Self Reliance is a Virtue

except when your boiler is broken? While I agree with you I don't understand your point.

David Toppin_2

I'm sure

and I don't begrudge anyone a living. But if I don't need to hire someone I don't. How much to fix my problem?

David Toppin_2

munchkin fan

the plastic part that I think is a flow diverter of some sort, looks like a dish with a hole in the middle, blew itself up. Inside the blower, the blower is right next to it.

Are you having the same problem? You'll have the f13 code if it goes

Robert O'Connor_11

Water

over the dam at this point.

However, I am sure there is someone near you that could fix your issue today.

All the best

Robert

ME

jerry scharf_3

You make a great leap

Dave,

You made a leap that because you called Chuck and had a fan problem, he knew it would self destruct. To the best of my knowledge, what you saw is not the standard MO for the EBM fan failure. Many here know Chuck personally, and I would put $100 on the table right now that if Chuck thought that fan was going to blow up, he would have told you so and would have told you to find a part and replace it right now. Chuck bends over backwards to help friends and strangers alike, and there are many people on the wall and off that will back that up.

There's also a bit of a problem for you. It is impossible for us to know whether whether you contributed to the problem. You are not trained or experienced with the unit, and building a car engine or a computer does not immediately qualify you to fix this.

You're completely ready to blame HTP completely for the problem and your lack of heat. But I am in no way in a position to believe you. I and no one else saw what exactly you did before during and after the call. Like it or not, these are the facts we have.

You burst onto the wall saying all these things. If I was in your situation, I would be much more circumspect. I would expect that there is as much chance that I caused it as it did it on it's own. I have learned this after the fact lesson enough times by now. Your accusations and self assuredness without the benefit of training or experience (since many of us seem to read your posts the same way) do not engender either support or sympathy.

I hope you can find space heaters and the like to keep yourself warm. I'm sure your neighbors will help in any way they can.

jerry

[Deleted User]

Bruce...

I have no idea who you are or who you work for, but if someone came to the Wall and started trashing you and your company without the benefit of being able to get your side of the story, I'd have probably have said and done the same thing.

This ain't no beauty contest. I'm not here garning supports or votes. I'm only here trying to educate the masses to the best of my extent and tellin' it like it is.

As someone once said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen..."

As for Chuck being able to tell if a fan is going to shred or not, I've known Chuck for a long time, and I'm pretty darned sure that he's not a clairvoyant.

As for being able to waltz up to the doors of the factory and demand a part, I'd like to see you roll up to GM and demand that they sell you a part off the assembly line.

Stuff happens. This too shall come to pass. You'll look back one of theses days when all the kiddies are grown up and say, "Ya remember the christmas we had no hot water and heat..." Life goes on Bruce. Life goes on...

Merry Christmas to all.

ME

David Toppin_2

The Great Leap

Whether I contributed to the problem? As much chance that I caused it? I didn't touch the damn thing before it started making the noise, and even then I left it alone until it failed completely. How could I could have caused the plastic thing to blow itself up. That's like saying you shouldn't have gotten yourself mugged! Or maam, I'm sorry you were raped, but you shouldn't have been wearing tht short dress. All I did was buy the Munchkin and have it installed. That was my contribution to the problem. I may not be trained or experienced with the unit (other than reading lots of glowing reviews here before I bought it, and reading all the literature that is with the unit. I understand how things operate, and we're only talking about a blower failure here, it's not rocket science. I woke up yesterday morning and the boiler was making a noise, you could hear it on the second floor of the house and the boiler is in the basement. I called HTP before I touched anything. He told me that it was probably a gas regulation problem. I didn't think so. I then went down and took the cover off the boiler and felt the blower motor vibrating. So I called back and talked to Chuck again. He told me the blower part number I needed, I called Webb, they were closed. I told Chuck no big deal, I'd get one Monday. I would think that someone with lots of experience with this product would know that the possibility existed for the blower to fail sooner rather than later. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not trying to besmirch Chuck, I know he's a nice helpful guy, he called back when I left a message (which is more than I can say for a hell of a lot of people I buy stuff from) and he responded to the email I sent to him directly this morning. If you google Munchkin and F13 you get results from many people who had the same problem I am having, some of them 3 or 4 times. So I'm just saying that someone from the company knows there is a problem, and it would have been nice to have been warned. Maybe I am being too hard on Chuck, but I'm not really trying to be. I imagine there is a possibility that he didn't know this could happen or hasn't seen it before. I do completely blame HTP for my lack of heat this weekend. Thanks for your input!

David Toppin_2

Mark

Thanks for your input. My name is actually Dave. I am a regular guy with my own company. And you can bet your life that if one of my customers has a problem that I can help out with I will bend over backwards to get them what they need whether or not I'm closed or it's a Saturday or Sunday. Many of my customers have my cell number, and I encourage them to call me whenever if I can help them out of a situation. I'm sure CHuck is a very nice guy, he was on the phone. I just think from my searching that this is a pretty common problem on these things and could have been caught. HTP is free to come here and tell their side of the story. Is there something you believe I am lying about? Maybe I took my boiler apart for fun, broke my fan, and then showed up here to "bash" HTP? You are correct, this too shall pass, and I've been through much worse, it's just pretty inconvenient, particularly if no one opens up until Tuesday. Thank God it's warm so I don't have to drain all the pipes.

As far as going to the factory to get the part, HTP is in no way GM and it shouldn't be a big deal for them to get a part into my hands. Like I said, if someone needed a part from me, they would have it today (I would go to my warehouse and get it, drive it to them, meet them there, whatever) I assume you would do the same for your customers. I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, just expecting to be treated by them like I would treat one of my customers.

Merry Christmas!

JB_7

munchkin fan

David: Happy Holidays, sorry for your dillema I fully under your predicament If you had to pay the price that the pro's need to charge to stay in business you would be better off installing simple reliable CI pinner boiler and spend the mony saved on insullating the envelope.

It makes little sense having a highly efficient appliance that will cost you all your fuel savings on repairs.

maybe you can install a backup DHW system for the future,I have a Bosch wall hung unit I can switch over inless than five mins. (just a thought)

Getting back to the blower fan do you have to replace the entire unit or can the blade and venturi be purchased separately

In your opinion is this failure caused by the way the fan motor is mounted, I see there is a lot of downward weight on those flexable mounts (I am considering replacing those with more rigid ones) some boilers that use this same fan but mounted in a different plane do not have this problem.

Please fill us in on the happy ending

Again Happy Holidays Jim.

brucewo1b

Mark I have no problem with you defending Chuck, FW Webb or HTP however telling a guy that has just lost his heat for a long holiday weekend its "Bitter Apples" and "SCHMIDT HAPPENS!" is rather sacastic and uncalled for especially when its is that time of year of freezing pipes, however we can at least be thankful for the warm weather right now.

I know that Chuck could not tell that the fan was about to shred however a man bought a product expecting to rely on it faithfully and it let him down at the beginning of a long weekend in the middle of winter, I would probably have some missgivings about that product at that time also but no need to rub it in his face.

I will say I find it so irritateing when a customers refuses to uprgade bad equipment and it fails in midwinter then expects you to do magic to make it run. However Dave has a rather new boiler different matter in my eyes. As for GM well I can call a Taxi or go to Budjet but last I checked Rent-a-Wreck doesn't rent boilers when mine fails.

I just felt and still do that there are better tacts to take in certain situations Mark, and at least a bit of empathy for someone that has just lost his heat midwinter ove a long weekend I am sure you would have been expressing similar sentaments as Dave if you found yourself in his shoes last night.

Merry Christmas to you both,

Bruce

John Rogers

re: research is key

Dave you should have done a google search on Munchkin problems before you bought it.If you have a few hours you should search on this web site, you will be amazed .Maybe you can get your money back, some lemon law or something.
Good Luck try a Slant Fin boiler next time, great Tech support.Merry Christmas

Dave Stroman

It is a fairly well known fact that these blowers had some problems. To my knowledge they fixed the problem and extended their warranty for the ones that were all ready in service. I personally use another brand of boiler that uses a similar blower and heat exchanger. Even though I do not do a lot of service work, I purchased every replaceable part for this boiler in order to handle any possible warranty work on my installations. My supplier put together a package deal for us where we get a very good deal if we bought the whole package.

I get a very sinking feeling when I get a call to repair a boiler that is down and I know that I do not have some of the special parts that I may need. It seems it is usually 4 PM on Fri. when this happens. I can not possible stock every part for every boiler I have ever installed. But I do try to stock some of the most common parts. And for this one condensing boiler, I stock all of them. Have not had any blower failures yet. A fan switch, a couple of ignitors, and an igniter control in the last 3 years of so. Not to bad.

I waffle back and forth about these new boilers. It looks like they are here to stay. I recently sold a big 500 lb. cast iron boiler because the owner wanted one to last a long time. This one will probably last generations. Off the shelf repair parts. Some say that the new condensers will save enough $ in their life time to pay for the replacement when the time comes. That may be so, but there is something to be said for the hassel that will be avoided if a replacement is not needed.

I recently have started piping my condensing boiler jobs in such a way that the old boiler could be removed from the wall and a new one of similar configuration could be installed with little repiping and down time. Maybe that does not show much confidence in these boilers. But when you think about it, when you pack such a big punch into such a small package, add all the necessary controls to monitor and control the fan, gas, air, water flow, ect., there is a lot more that can go wrong. Just like my d--- Buick in the garage that is making a clicking noise. Can not work on it like I used to with my 65 Ford. But I would much rather drive this Buick. The problem with a boiler is you can not borrow another one until yours is fixed. Hummmm..... perhaps 2 staged boilers would be something we should all consider. Then we would always have one the can be worked on and one that works.

Dave in Denver

leo g_13

Though do realize

that HTP has sold quite quite a few more Munchkins here then other brands of mod/cons. I think we will see just as much "google" complaints of these other brands when there numbers get to be significant.

The main thing for me is the way that HTP has addressed their problems and continue to be at the top in support!

Leo G


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

David Toppin_2

Munchkin Fan

Jim,

thanks for the post. I was told by Rich & Chuck that the Munchkin needs to have exh & intake vents at least 8" apart. This may be the problem. Apparently the exhaust gets sucked back into the intake and corrodes the fan to the point that the dished part comes apart. Which is kind of odd cause I'm not even sure it rotates. It may, but it looks like it just sits there. I don't think solid mounts would make a difference, athough orientation may, one other guy mentioned that. Chuck from HTP went out of his way to find me a blower today and I have the thing going again. I appreciate his help and the help of this board. I always like to ask the smart guys first! It was tough having no heat & hot water for the last couple days. Five kids at home, one autistic (makes it hard to go anywhere)> The wife was NOT happy!